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The recurring dream of replacing developers

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Re: The recurring dream of replacing developers

#211
To understand how business views developers, reread Tim Bryce's Theory P: The Philosophy of Managing Programmers (which is old enough to drink in the USA today): https://web.archive.org/web/20160407111718fw_/http://phmains...

Tim Bryce was kind of the anti Scott Adams: he felt that programmers were people of mediocre intelligence at best that thought they were so damn smart, when really if they were so smart, they'd move into management or business analysis where they could have a real impact, and not be content with the scutwork of translating business requirements into machine-executable code. As it is, they don't have the people skills or big-picture systems thinking to really pull it off, and that combined with their snobbery made them a burden to an organization unless they were effectively managed—such as with his methodology PRIDE, which you could buy direct from his web site.

Oddly enough, in a weird horseshoe-theory instance of convergent psychological evolution, Adams and Bryce both ended up Trump supporters.

Ultimately, however, "the Bryce was right": the true value in software development lies not in the lines of code but in articulating what needs to be automated and how it can benefit the business. The more precisely you nail this down, the more programming becomes a mechanical task. Your job as a developer is to deliver the most value to the customer with the least possible cost. (Even John Carmack agrees with this.) This requires thinking like a business, in terms of dollars and cents (and people), not bits and bytes. And as AI becomes a critical component of software development, business thinking will become more necessary and technical thinking, much less so. Programmers as a professional class will be drastically reduced or eliminated, and replaced with business analysts with some technical understanding but real strength on the business/people side, where the real value gets added. LLMs meaningfully allow people to issue commands to computers in people language, for the very first time. As they evolve they will be more capable of implementing business requirements expressed directly in business language, without an intermediator to translate those requirements into code (i.e., the programmer). This was always the goal, and it's within reach.

Re: The recurring dream of replacing developers

#212
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Classic Jevons Paradox - when something gets cheaper the market for it grows. The unit cost shrinks but the number of units bought grows more than this shrinkage.

Does that automatically translate into more openings for the people whose full time job is providing that thing? I’m not sure that it does. Historically, it would seem that often lowering the amount of people needed to produce a good is precisely what makes it cheaper. So it’s not hard to imagine a world where AI tools make expert software developers significantly more productive while enabling other workers to use t…

I debate this in my head way to much & from each & every perspective.

Counter argument - if what you say is true, we will have a lot more custom & personalized software and the tech stacks behind those may be even more complicated than they currently are because we're now wanting to add LLMs that can talk to our APIs. We might also be adding multiple LLMs to our back ends to do things as well. Maybe we're replacing 10 but now someone has to manage that LLM infrastructure as well.

My opinion will change by tomorrow but I could see more people building software that are currently experts in other domains. I can also see software engineers focusing more on keeping the new more complicated architecture being built from falling apart & trying to enforce tech standards. Our roles may become more infra & security. Less features, more stability & security.

Re: The recurring dream of replacing developers

#213
post #69

[flagged]

This suggests that the latent demand was a lot but it still doesnt prove it is unbounded. At some point the low hanging automation fruit gets tapped out. What can be put online that isnt there already? Which business processes are obviously going to be made an order magnitude more efficient? Moreover, we've never had more developers and we've exited an anomalous period of extraordinarily low interest rates. The party…

Yep, the current crunch experienced by developers is massively (but not exclusivly) on younger less experienced developers.

I was working with developer training for a while some 5-10 years back and already then I was starting to see some signs of an incoming over-saturation, the low interest rates probably masked much of it due to happy go lucky investments sucking up developers.

Low hanging and cheap automation,etc work is quickly dwindling now, especially as development firms are searching out new niches when the big "in-IT" customers aren't buying services inside the industry.

Luckily people will retire and young people probably aren't as bullish about the industry anymore, so we'll probably land in an equilebrium, the question is how long it'll take, because the long tail of things enabled by the mobile/tablet revolution is starting to be claimed.

Re: The recurring dream of replacing developers

#215
We succeeded each time. We replaced the 60s dev with a 70s dev with an 80s dev... Same title different job description.

I can see the 2030s dev doing more original research with mundane tasks put to LLM. Courses will cover manual coding, assembler etc. for a good foundation. But that'll be like an uber driver putting on a spare tire.

Re: The recurring dream of replacing developers

#216

[flagged]

The honest truth is it can go either way, really. Just ask all the sign-painters and portrait artists how their career is going

But sign painting isn't programming? The comment is insightful and talks specifically of low and no code options creating more need for developers. Great point. has nothing to do with non programming jobs.

Re: The recurring dream of replacing developers

#217
>>>> Developers feel misunderstood and undervalued.

Really?

Is this reflected in wages and hiring? I work for a company that makes a hardware product with mission-critical support software. The software team dwarfs the hardware team, and is paid quite well. Now they're exempt from "return to office."

I attended a meeting to move a project into development phase, and at one point the leader got up and said: "Now we've been talking about the hardware, but of course we all know that what's most important is the software."

Re: The recurring dream of replacing developers

#218
post #118
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Machinery made farmers more efficient and now there are more farmers than ever.

Pre industrial revolution something like 80+ percent of the population was involved in agriculture. I question the assertion of more farmers now especially since an ever growing percentage of farms are not even owned by corporeal entities never mind actual farmers. ooohhh I think I missed the intent of the statement... well done!

i don't think you missed it. Perhaps sarcasm, but the main comment is specifically about programming and seems so many sub comments want to say "what about X" that's nothing to do with programming.

Re: The recurring dream of replacing developers

#219

It's not so much about replacing developers, but rather increasing the level of abstraction developers can work at, to allow them to work on more complex problems. The first electronic computers were programmed by manually re-wiring their circuits. Going from that to being able to encode machine instructions on punchcards did not replace developers. Nor did going from raw machine instructions to assembly code. Nor di…

> It's not so much about replacing developers, but rather increasing the level of abstraction developers can work at, to allow them to work on more complex problems. Thats not the goal the Anthropic's CEO has. Nor does any other CEO for that matter.

> Thats not the goal the Anthropic's CEO has. Nor does any other CEO for that matter.

It is what he can deliver.

Re: The recurring dream of replacing developers

#220

[flagged]

In the face of productivity increase and lower barrier of entry, other professionals move to capture the increase in productivity for their own members and erect barriers to prevent others from taking their tasks. In IT, we celebrate how our productivity increase benefited the broader economy, how more people in other roles could now build stuff, with the strong belief that employment of developers and adjacent roles will continue to increase and how we could get those new roles.
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