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NYC Mayoral Inauguration bans Raspberry Pi and Flipper Zero alongside explosives

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Re: NYC Mayoral Inauguration bans Raspberry Pi and Flipper Zero alongside explosives

#211

Post by borski »

sadeshmukh wrote: post #196
kube-system wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And? There’s a lot of things that people could theoretically do. The few seconds that someone is going through event security isn’t going to stop a competent attacker, nor is it reasonable to expect them to be able to do that. The point is to stop the most common attackers who are sloppy idiots.

No incompetent person could feasibly use a Raspberry Pi to do any harm, and I invite you to find any examples to the contrary. It is easier to abuse a phone.

This is the point.

It is solving for the wrong problem. An idiot with a Pi or Flipper Zero isn’t the actual threat any more than Star Simpson was.

And if you don’t agree the stupidity that Star was put through was absurd, then we simply won’t agree on the matter.

There’s a difference between security/intelligence and theater. Too many people mistake the two, because they’ve been trained by folks like the TSA to mistake theater for security/intelligence.

Re: NYC Mayoral Inauguration bans Raspberry Pi and Flipper Zero alongside explosives

#212

Post by kube-system »

sadeshmukh wrote: post #196
kube-system wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And? There’s a lot of things that people could theoretically do. The few seconds that someone is going through event security isn’t going to stop a competent attacker, nor is it reasonable to expect them to be able to do that. The point is to stop the most common attackers who are sloppy idiots.

No incompetent person could feasibly use a Raspberry Pi to do any harm, and I invite you to find any examples to the contrary. It is easier to abuse a phone.

You're really missing the forest for the trees here. It's arguable which one has more theoretical exploits. This is an issue of practicality. Phones are allowed because it's normal for everyone to have one in their pocket and impractical to ban them.

Re: NYC Mayoral Inauguration bans Raspberry Pi and Flipper Zero alongside explosives

#213

Post by borski »

kube-system wrote: post #212
sadeshmukh wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No incompetent person could feasibly use a Raspberry Pi to do any harm, and I invite you to find any examples to the contrary. It is easier to abuse a phone.

You're really missing the forest for the trees here. It's arguable which one has more theoretical exploits. This is an issue of practicality. Phones are allowed because it's normal for everyone to have one in their pocket and impractical to ban them.

With respect (I mean that in earnest), I think you may be the one missing the forest for the trees.

Nobody is arguing we should ban phones. The argument is that banning flipper zeros doesn’t accomplish anything meaningful toward security.

Re: NYC Mayoral Inauguration bans Raspberry Pi and Flipper Zero alongside explosives

#214

Post by kube-system »

borski wrote: post #211
sadeshmukh wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No incompetent person could feasibly use a Raspberry Pi to do any harm, and I invite you to find any examples to the contrary. It is easier to abuse a phone.

This is the point. It is solving for the wrong problem. An idiot with a Pi or Flipper Zero isn’t the actual threat any more than Star Simpson was. And if you don’t agree the stupidity that Star was put through was absurd, then we simply won’t agree on the matter. There’s a difference between security/intelligence and theater. Too many people mistake the two, because they’ve been trained by folks like the TSA to mista…

You are all spot on with in terms of a technical information security evaluation here.

Unfortunately, the reality is there are not enough information security specialists in the world to hire them as event security for every large public event. And even if there were, the logistics of such an event would not allow for enough time for a proper information security screening.

What you're asking for is not theoretically wrong, it's just impossible to implement.

Re: NYC Mayoral Inauguration bans Raspberry Pi and Flipper Zero alongside explosives

#215

Post by kube-system »

borski wrote: post #213
kube-system wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're really missing the forest for the trees here. It's arguable which one has more theoretical exploits. This is an issue of practicality. Phones are allowed because it's normal for everyone to have one in their pocket and impractical to ban them.

With respect (I mean that in earnest), I think you may be the one missing the forest for the trees. Nobody is arguing we should ban phones. The argument is that banning flipper zeros doesn’t accomplish anything meaningful toward security.

Yeah, they are probably a disturbance at best. Like pets, large signs, beach balls, and alcohol alcoholic beverages, which are other things on the list.

"security" is a lot more broad than just "preventing terrorist attacks"

You don't need to be a super l33et h4x0r to disrupt an event -- you could knock around a beach ball or turn off a display with the IR blaster on a flipper zero. Not everything is life or death.

Re: NYC Mayoral Inauguration bans Raspberry Pi and Flipper Zero alongside explosives

#216

Post by borski »

kube-system wrote: post #215
borski wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With respect (I mean that in earnest), I think you may be the one missing the forest for the trees. Nobody is arguing we should ban phones. The argument is that banning flipper zeros doesn’t accomplish anything meaningful toward security.

Yeah, they are probably a disturbance at best. Like pets, large signs, beach balls, and alcohol alcoholic beverages, which are other things on the list. "security" is a lot more broad than just "preventing terrorist attacks" You don't need to be a super l33et h4x0r to disrupt an event -- you could knock around a beach ball or turn off a display with the IR blaster on a flipper zero. Not everything is life or death.

What’s more likely? That they were banned due to misunderstandings of what these devices are, or that they were banned they are “causing a disturbance”? Can you find an example of such a case? I’m not sure why this feels so important to defend.

There are several definitions of security, but the most relevant (in this context) are:

1. the state of being protected against or safe from danger or threat.

2. the safety of a state or organization against criminal activity such as terrorism, theft, or espionage.

3. procedures followed or measures taken to ensure the safety of a state or organization.

I fail to see how these devices fall into those definitions. I also don’t see how beach balls do either.

So if your argument is changing to: it isn’t security, but rather preventing people from getting in each other’s way (large signs, strollers, beach balls) I once again don’t see how that applies.

I agree those items have nothing to do with security either.

Re: NYC Mayoral Inauguration bans Raspberry Pi and Flipper Zero alongside explosives

#217

Post by ssl-3 »

amwet wrote: post #198
ssl-3 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. There's probably no legitimate reason for non-voting children to be present at such a political event, either. And by way of the process of excluding these children, the motivation for bringing other items without legitimate use like crayons, coloring books, and paperclips will be greatly diminished. It's win-win. Thank you for the excellent insight!

Voting adults can’t necessarily afford or arrange childcare which is a legitimate reason to bring their non-voting children. Effectively all non-voting children will one day be voting adults. Exposure to politics before participating in politics is valuable not only for them, but for everyone who will be eventually governed partially by their vote. Legitimate reason #2. Regardless of the lack of vote, non-voting chil…

That's a very well-reasoned argument. It is perhaps a shame that it's been placed against the most absurdly sarcastic train of thought I could come up with ("Coloring books have no legitimate purpose at such an event, and therefore nor do children"), but your take remains well-reasoned nonetheless.

---

I won't be in NYC tomorrow. But if I were planning to go then there'd be a good chance I'd pack my usual way for a short-duration trip: A backpack with a laptop, a change of clothes rolled up tight, and a Raspberry Pi.

Some people bring things like cards or a [coloring] book, but those are not my preferred styles of distraction.

SBCs like that don't take up much space. They pack fairly well and give me something out-of-band to goof around with when I'm traveling and bored, where my usual household distractions don't exist.

I get some pretty creative systems stuff done on them sometimes by creating some whimsical problem, working out the steps for a solution, and then implementing it and seeing how it plays out -- in the field, away from my usual pile of resources. It's fun for me.

There's almost certainly some manner of Pi already in my bag right now, left over from my last trip -- probably housed in one of those cheeky red-and-white plastic cases that the Pi Foundation offers.

It would not be a huge loss if I had to dumpster it like a forgotten nail clipper at the airport after 9/11, but it sure would be surprising. It's not a particularly devilish device and has never attracted any sort of attention, and I would never have reasonably expected it to do so.

Re: NYC Mayoral Inauguration bans Raspberry Pi and Flipper Zero alongside explosives

#218

Post by borski »

kube-system wrote: post #214
borski wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the point. It is solving for the wrong problem. An idiot with a Pi or Flipper Zero isn’t the actual threat any more than Star Simpson was. And if you don’t agree the stupidity that Star was put through was absurd, then we simply won’t agree on the matter. There’s a difference between security/intelligence and theater. Too many people mistake the two, because they’ve been trained by folks like the TSA to mista…

You are all spot on with in terms of a technical information security evaluation here. Unfortunately, the reality is there are not enough information security specialists in the world to hire them as event security for every large public event. And even if there were, the logistics of such an event would not allow for enough time for a proper information security screening. What you're asking for is not theoretically…

I agree.

My argument isn’t that every event can and should build an intelligence apparatus. That would be impossible, though it would actually provide security. I agree.

My argument is that banning flipper zeros does not do anything to improve security, even if they wish it did. If they actually cared about security, it would cost them a lot more time and money. Instead, they’ve chosen theater. I don’t even have a problem with this necessarily, if it makes some people feel safer; I have a problem with anyone pretending it is security, and not theater.

When someone is given a placebo during a clinical trial, they are informed and unblinded after the trial so that they do not think they were on the actual medication; this is because otherwise, they would draw the wrong conclusion from the trial for themselves.

This is theater; that’s okay, maybe, but let’s not pretend it’s something it isn’t.

Anyway, I think we’re repeating ourselves, and I’m happy to agree to disagree.

Re: NYC Mayoral Inauguration bans Raspberry Pi and Flipper Zero alongside explosives

#219

Post by qnleigh »

bryancoxwell wrote: post #113
qnleigh wrote: post #29

People should bring raspberry pies in protest, see what happens.

Not being allowed to bring a raspberry pi to a mayoral inauguration is an incredibly weird thing to protest

Haha fair. But you would be protesting a weird thing in a weird way, so at least you'd be consistent.

Re: NYC Mayoral Inauguration bans Raspberry Pi and Flipper Zero alongside explosives

#220

Post by kube-system »

borski wrote: post #216
kube-system wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, they are probably a disturbance at best. Like pets, large signs, beach balls, and alcohol alcoholic beverages, which are other things on the list. "security" is a lot more broad than just "preventing terrorist attacks" You don't need to be a super l33et h4x0r to disrupt an event -- you could knock around a beach ball or turn off a display with the IR blaster on a flipper zero. Not everything is life or death.

What’s more likely? That they were banned due to misunderstandings of what these devices are, or that they were banned they are “causing a disturbance”? Can you find an example of such a case? I’m not sure why this feels so important to defend. There are several definitions of security, but the most relevant (in this context) are: 1. the state of being protected against or safe from danger or threat. 2. the safety of…

I'm not changing anything -- my root comment in this thread specifically mentioned "disturbances". Mitigating disturbances to the proceedings of an event is plainly a part of event security. The "threats" evaluated in event security are not solely to life and limb but also to the proceedings of the event itself. I didn't think this required elaboration; I thought most people would be familiar with this function of event security.
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