Live data from Hacker News

Texas app store age verification law blocked by federal judge

macrumors.com

211–220 of 263 posts

Re: Texas app store age verification law blocked by federal judge

#211
post #35

Judge Robert Pitman said that it violates the First Amendment and is "more likely than not - unconstitutional." The Act is akin to a law that would require every bookstore to verify the age of every customer at the door and, for minors, require parental consent before the child or teen could enter and again when they try to purchase a book. We enjoy 1A protections of speech and assembly. When we consider our rights,…

For those curious about the "consistent principle of law" here - SCOTUS wrestled with nearly exactly this question in Free Speech Coalition v. Paxton earlier this year, and effectively emboldened more of these laws. Previously the Fifth Circuit had relied heavily on Ginsberg v. New York (1968) to justify rational basis review. But Ginsberg was a narrow scope - it held that minors don't have the same First Amendment r…

> Previously the Fifth Circuit had relied heavily on Ginsberg v. New York (1968) to justify rational basis review. But Ginsberg was a narrow scope - it held that minors don't have the same First Amendment rights as adults to access "obscene as to minors" material. It wasn't about burdens on adults at all.

Ginsberg was about burdens on adults. In that case, New York law prohibited the sale of content containing nude images to minors. The Supreme Court upheld the conviction of a store owner under that law, who had sold magazines containing nude pictures to underage buyers: https://www.oyez.org/cases/1967/47.

Ginsberg acknowledged that the magazines did not qualify as obscenity as to adults--selling the magazines in question to adults was protected First Amendment conduct. So the age checking necessarily required by the law was a burden on those First Amendment protected sales. Ginsberg necessarily found that burden to be a permissible one.

Re: Texas app store age verification law blocked by federal judge

#212
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every book in a bookstore can be verified because the content can be known and audited A bookstore with a single employee can no more verify the content of every new book or periodical put up for sale than Apple can verify all new content on the internet. Books and periodicals come out far, far too quickly for an independently owned bookstore to read first. Never mind new books which have set release dates where bo…

That’s an argument that sounds convincing in principle, but in reality I can walk into any independent bookstore and find it’s not filled with porn and AI slop, so clearly there is a successful vetting process going on. Namely, the publishers vet the books then the bookstore owner only has to vet the publishers. A proof of concept internet equivalent is if I scrape a bunch of trusted YouTube channels onto a NAS and g…

This hypothetical independent shop you walk into is not filled with slop because it's curated; the store is intentionally keeping its inventory to a manageable level so that it can be screened first.

If the owner stopped caring and just decided to let any book that passed through the automated "does this book immediately and actively harm the customer?" screening machine then you'd have something that approximates the app stores.

Re: Texas app store age verification law blocked by federal judge

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange and destructive. I believe comprehensible law is a human right that is critically underacknowledged. Like, up there with the right to speech and a fair trial. If you cannot understand the law as it applies to you, you cannot possibly be free under that law, because your actions will always be constrained by your uncertainty.

Seems to be less of an issue in practice, as the level of detail is pretty clear unless you're operating at the "bleeding edge" of legal understanding, in which case I imagine you can afford to hire someone to figure out the details to you. Perfect understanding of every law and its consequence is not possible anyway, because laws are meant to be contextual and interpreted by humans, to allow for exceptions in unusua…

It's not about "unique court cases". Surely you must have noticed that whenever someone asks online whether it's legal to do some apparently reasonable but tricky thing, the answer is almost always "ask a lawyer"? How many of those people can actually afford a lawyer?

Do you actually think it's ok for freedom to only exist for people who can afford lawyers?

Re: Texas app store age verification law blocked by federal judge

#214
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe we’re inching towards rule by law vs rule of law by making things so abstruse that you need a multiyear education to understand what is allowed, when and where.

As the complexity of the world increases this may naturally happen

perhaps it then becomes a matter of policy to periodically reformulate the law so it is compact and understandable and illustrated with examples for the general public. i wonder if llms will be able to do this reliably ever.

Re: Texas app store age verification law blocked by federal judge

#215
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soo the strongest form of privacy protection isn't better storage or better policies, it's simply not creating the data in the first place

Instead of fixing consequences, eliminate the cause? It sounds almost like common sense. I think most laws should look reasonable from the common-sense viewpoint. And when they don't, there should be a serious explanation.

Privacy legislation and infrastructure are both designed to eschew common-sense. It's how the fed gets away installing backdoors in iOS and Android: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-...

Re: Texas app store age verification law blocked by federal judge

#216
post #137
post #123

I wonder why Texas did not start by targeting NSFW / porn apps specifically, like other states. I also wonder why smut literature (the best selling category of books on Amazon) seems to get a free pass.

The app stores already block porn on their own initiative. > I also wonder why smut literature (the best selling category of books on Amazon) seems to get a free pass. It's popular with women and basically invisible to men.

There are plenty of NSFW oriented apps, especially in the AI category.

> It's popular with women and basically invisible to men.

Mostly true, and this might be a reflection of reality, but certainly not a justification.

Re: Texas app store age verification law blocked by federal judge

#217
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Occam's Razor - this complexity arises from the human nature to try and build consistent abstractions over complex situations. It's exactly what we do in software too. To an outsider it's going to look nonsensical. I want to share a thought experiment with you - atop an ancient Roman legal case I recall from Gregory Aldrete - The Barbershop Murder. Suppose a man sends his slave to a barbershop to get a shave. The bar…

> The legal question is posed: Who is liable under Roman law? My question is why does anybody have to be liable at all? Most normal people would consider this just to be a freak accident. Sure, there's learning points that can be taken from it to prevent similar incidents - e.g. erecting a fetch around the field (why didn't you suggest that the field owner be liable) as it can be reasonably foreseen the situation of…

> My question is why does anybody have to be liable at all?

This question mistakes what civil law is doing. A more accurate framing would be, “why does anybody have to bear the loss?”. But of course, somebody must. So the task of civil law here is to determine who. Certain policy choices will align better or worse with a sense of fairness, better or worse with incentives that could reduce future losses, etc.

Re: Texas app store age verification law blocked by federal judge

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically liquor store checks were purely visual. These days they are often digital, meaning claims about privacy might (or might not) be outdated. The general principle still applies though. The physical infrastructure already exists, the ID checks do not necessarily need to be digitized or recorded, and even if they are the issued tokens don't need to be tied to the check. Grocery stores already sell age restric…

I don't trust that the information about my identity would not be recorded while selling me my "free speech token". So the chilling effect on free speech would be exactly the same.

What if the digital infra that issues the token is state or Federal software? That should significantly reduce privacy concerns?

Re: Texas app store age verification law blocked by federal judge

#220
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of fixing consequences, eliminate the cause? It sounds almost like common sense. I think most laws should look reasonable from the common-sense viewpoint. And when they don't, there should be a serious explanation.

Privacy legislation and infrastructure are both designed to eschew common-sense. It's how the fed gets away installing backdoors in iOS and Android: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-...

Beautiful :-\ But it's not a backdoor on devices, it's eavesdropping push notifications when they pass Google's or Apple's servers.

Corollary: a secure notification should consist of a link with a random number token which opens the real message via an authenticated API on an encrypted channel. Would look a bit weird though. iOS at least has silent notifications for that.

Post reply on HN