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Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

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Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#211

Post by scoofy »

jeffbee wrote: post #195
scoofy wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to have a semantic argument with you, but I'd consider anything rarer than "a few hours per year" as an "extremely rare event" for the purposes of training autonomous vehicles.

OK well let's argue about the semantics of "autonomous" instead. To me, it means the vehicle's on-board systems should generalize to safe and non-disruptive behaviors under all circumstances. In this instance they should have been able to either navigate to a depot or at least pull off the road.

I think that’s a perfectly reasonable standard for a normal operating environment.

In emergencies I think “safe” is preferable to “non-disruptive.”

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#212

Post by philipallstar »

blibble wrote: post #192
malfist wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fire trucks are very expensive to be playing bumper cars with

if google's property is blocking the road, google can pay for the damage

As long as you're happy that if your property ever blocks the road, you will pay for the damage too.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#213

Post by dmix »

wiml wrote: post #201
dmix wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was the better solution here then? Assuming there's hundreds or thousands of self-driving cars suddenly driving in environment without any traffic lights. In the pictures you can see six Waymo cars at a single intersection. Assuming some of them had passengers should they all try to turn at the intersection anyway, when their LIDAR says the lane is likely free and pull over to the side? Is that the safest option…

We already have a solution, it's written down in the traffic laws. If the signals fail, treat the intersection roughly like a four-way stop. Everybody learns this in drivers' ed. It's not obscure. If the cars can't follow traffic rules maybe they're not ready to be on the streets unsupervised.

That may be the rules for humans, particuarly people who are always in a rush and won't stay still anyway. With a major intersection turned four-way stop you have lots of humans making very complex decisions and taking a lot of personal risk. If multiple self driving cars make the choice at the wrong time you could jam up an intersection and create a worse traffic issue, or kill a passenger.

It's all a careful risk calculation, those self driving cars need to determine if it's safe to continue through an intersection without the traffic lights their computers spent millions of hours to train on (likewise with humans). That's a tough choice for a highly regulated/insured company running thousands of cars.

If anything, their programming should only take such a risk to move out of the way for a fire truck/ambulance.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#214

Post by cess11 »

chroma wrote: post #137
cess11 wrote: post #103

I think I prefer trains and buses.

SF Muni & BART both stopped service in many areas. Though most of the trains still had electricity, many sensors and control systems were inoperable. Also underground stations had no lighting, so it would be hazardous to allow people to board or exit there. Waymo's problem is obvious in hindsight, and quite embarrassing for them, but it can be solved with software improvements. Tesla's FSD already treats dark traffic…

Living in social rot and keeping unmanned little autos for those that can afford it seems even more nasty than what I initially had in mind.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#216

Post by [deleted] »

themafia wrote: post #175
MBCook wrote: post #93

From John Ripley on Mastodon: “Thought of the day, and I wish there were a way to get this to legislators: Come the next Big One earthquake, all of San Francisco’s emergency services will be blocked by Waymos.” I’m AMAZED they’re not designed to handle this better. This does indeed seem like a massive problem. “Oops we give up” right when things get the worst? How is this OK? I’ve been very impressed by Waymo’s more…

> Perhaps they haven’t fully thought through the ramifications of it though. There is a chorus of voices here on HN that have tried to do this openly, obviously, myself included. It seems to be almost universally derided by people who apparently assume that we're just trying to hurt a start up out of anti-environmental sentiment and jealousy. There are more ways to get "self-driving cars" wrong than there are to get…

[deleted]

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#217

Post by MuffinFlavored »

MBCook wrote: post #93

From John Ripley on Mastodon: “Thought of the day, and I wish there were a way to get this to legislators: Come the next Big One earthquake, all of San Francisco’s emergency services will be blocked by Waymos.” I’m AMAZED they’re not designed to handle this better. This does indeed seem like a massive problem. “Oops we give up” right when things get the worst? How is this OK? I’ve been very impressed by Waymo’s more…

What if there was a herd of people off-shore on-call willing to basically "RDP in" and take over control (human takeover) of the entire fleet when needed? I could see that being an attractive pitch.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#218

Post by kylehotchkiss »

malfist wrote: post #146
kylehotchkiss wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would just push them all out of the way with my fire truck, I mean one fire truck could probably clear 6-8 Waymos at a time, right?

Fire trucks are very expensive to be playing bumper cars with

They have massive steel bumpers, pushing them away slowly seems mostly harmless (not at maximum velocity lol)

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#219

Post by bombcar »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #217
MBCook wrote: post #93

From John Ripley on Mastodon: “Thought of the day, and I wish there were a way to get this to legislators: Come the next Big One earthquake, all of San Francisco’s emergency services will be blocked by Waymos.” I’m AMAZED they’re not designed to handle this better. This does indeed seem like a massive problem. “Oops we give up” right when things get the worst? How is this OK? I’ve been very impressed by Waymo’s more…

What if there was a herd of people off-shore on-call willing to basically "RDP in" and take over control (human takeover) of the entire fleet when needed? I could see that being an attractive pitch.

This very scenario could involve no cell signal.

Re: Waymo halts service during S.F. blackout after causing traffic jams

#220

Post by blibble »

philipallstar wrote: post #212
blibble wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if google's property is blocking the road, google can pay for the damage

As long as you're happy that if your property ever blocks the road, you will pay for the damage too.

absolutely

don't be a dick, don't block the road

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