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How getting richer made teenagers less free

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Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#211

Post by insane_dreamer »

senordevnyc wrote: post #192

I have a ten year old daughter in NYC, and I’m probably one of the types of parents who many here are castigating. I’m not ready for her to go out and explore the city on her own. Here’s what I worry about: - cars: she’s not always the most present and aware, and it takes one mistake to ruin or end her life. - bikes and scooters: less dangerous in some ways, but more ubiquitous and unpredictable than cars - sexual ha…

I understand and worry about my kids the same age too. But the paradox I myself admit to is that those perceived dangers aren't new nor have they increased significantly since I was young in the 70s -- other than scooters being new -- and yet I, and pretty much every other kid, had tons of freedom and was just fine. So it's mostly about the fears in my head, not the reality on the ground.

Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#212

Post by [deleted] »

louthy wrote: post #88
arethuza wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overcoming hardships may leave people more resilient, but it may also leave them physical and/or psychological wrecks.

As someone who has had some serious hardship and is certainly more resilient because of it, I can also confirm the mental scarring that comes as ‘part of the package’. I think to an extent the mental impact of it is a necessary evil. The future resilience manifests as a drive to not find yourself in the same (or an equally difficult) position again — because it’s so emotionally devastating — so you fight harder to no…

[deleted]

Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#213

Post by yesfitz »

insane_dreamer wrote: post #206
slifin wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars, I nearly got run over as a kid a few times Now as an adult I'd be worried about cycling around with cars that would hit me in the chest and not the legs on impact Also cars make it very easy for a stranger to pull up and kidnap, parents subconsciously know that and factor it into their decisions There was also youth clubs where I grew up and a BMX track and no phones so play was mostly happening outside Society…

cars were just as plentiful in the 70s and 80s as now and yet parents weren't nearly as worried about it as they are now and kids were much more on bikes then than now -- which is a rare sight unless it's parents with their little kids on a Sunday ride in the park

Based on the census, cars were NOT just as plentiful. The number of cars per household has risen slightly[1] (although they stop keeping track after 3 cars), but the number of households have doubled[2] between 1970 and 2020.

As for the bikes, it's a vicious cycle compounded by distracted driving via cell phone. Less bikes means less drivers expecting to see a bike, making it more dangerous for bikes, meaning less bikes.

1: https://www.bts.gov/archive/publications/passenger_travel_20... 2: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/TTLHH

Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#214

Post by yesfitz »

ninkendo wrote: post #168
CalRobert wrote: post #43

For a counterexample, come visit Houten, NL (I live here and it's great) where you literally see kids around 10 years old biking independently, sometimes with a football (soccerball) or fishing rod in tow. And this is a pretty wealthy area by most standards. Here's a good livestream from my town - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujXqogC2zk4 (I share the livestream because that makes it harder to say it's cherrypicked…

> For a counterexample, come visit Houten, NL (I live here and it's great) where you literally see kids around 10 years old biking independently Or come to where I live in the midwestern united states and you see the same thing. I see kids as young as 7 years old riding bikes together on a bike path that has a very generous distance to the nearby road, and parents let them roam free. Always remember: If you see a sta…

If you live anywhere like Houten[1] anywhere in the US, please tell me ASAP because I'll move there tomorrow.

From my area of the Midwest around Iowa City, there are decent paths that connect the local towns, but intra-town cycling is far less supported. We have bike lanes (good), on some streets (bad), they're unprotected (bad) and they close on Sunday (bad, also what?). The car-free bike path along the river is shared with pedestrians, and some spandex-festooned idiots don't understand that it's not the place to go fast.

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFEfr7Amn6U (5 minute overview of Houten)

Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#215

Post by Der_Einzige »

HexPhantom wrote: post #152
lm28469 wrote: post #28

And it also creates permanent adulescents, scared of responsibilities, scared of commitment, scared of exploring. I've seen it countless times with teenagers in my family, they're overgrown babies.

What looks like fear of responsibility can also be fear of doing something wrong in a world where mistakes are heavily punished and rarely forgiven

Anxiety is the only real emotion and it is the best one because it truly protects you from evil.

Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#216

Post by dredmorbius »

cons0le wrote: post #66
nrhrjrjrjtntbt wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sidewalk ended apparently. i am imagining some super hostile urban planning. like did a cyclist cheat with the planner's spouse? is there not another route?

It's impossible for people to get how bad it is until they see it. My old house had a grocery store 1.2 miles away. To walk there, you have to cross a 6 lane highway. Entire neighborhoods here have no sidewalks. And the roads are so torn up they're unusable. My friend had to get rid of his road bike and get a fat tire suspension bike. None of the intersections have any lights or visibility. And you can't run off the…

Too, in regions with winter weather (snow, or worse, sleet and ice), what few sidewalks or walking/biking trails which might exist are often further limited due to accumulated snow, if not slick with ice.

This can be found even within town/village centres, let alone the stroads and strip-malls on their peripheries. Walking and cycling become far more perilous.

Not impossible, but challenging, and a clear danger for the very young, elderly, or disabled.

Local ordinances to maintain clear sidewalks are quite often observed in the breach.

Then there's the shortened daylight hours, mentioned elsewhere in this thread.

Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#217

Post by Der_Einzige »

somenameforme wrote: post #76
slifin wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars, I nearly got run over as a kid a few times Now as an adult I'd be worried about cycling around with cars that would hit me in the chest and not the legs on impact Also cars make it very easy for a stranger to pull up and kidnap, parents subconsciously know that and factor it into their decisions There was also youth clubs where I grew up and a BMX track and no phones so play was mostly happening outside Society…

Ok I actually agree with you about debt and the general societal degradation, but kidnapping is a non-issue. In modern times there's a total of about 70 child kidnappings per year in the US. I am excluding parental kidnappings which sends that up by orders of magnitude, but I think that's fair because that's an entirely different issue and you specifically said stranger anyhow (though even of those 70 - a sizable chu…

When people try to downplay rates by comparing to another very rare event, I respond by saying “I don’t want to go outside during a thunderstorm” rather than “you don’t need to risk it cus it’s so rare”.

Most Americans are feeling the same way and you must understand this to understand why Cheeto in chief keeps winning.

Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#218

Post by Aeolun »

throwaway732255 wrote: post #103
TrackerFF wrote: post #15

I grew up in the late 80s/early 90s, and came from a rural place with a lot of poverty and at best working class people. We'd be outside all day long - being inside was considered a privilege. Weekdays and weekends. Decades later, most of my peers have middle-class jobs. Their kids are barely outside. Their parents are involved with them from morning to evening, or chauffeuring them between sports and other extracurr…

> Interestingly, I've heard from parents that many feel like they're both suffocating and feeling inadequate When my spouse and I were dating, we made fun of those “overly involved parents” who tried to live vicariously through their kids and over-scheduled them. Since having kids, my spouse has (over a one year period) put our 5 year old in: T-ball, swimming, dance, theater, Sunday school, church, soccer, gymnastics…

Hmm, I’m fairly certain the ‘having children’ part is what triggers total collapse of the previous worldview. My spouse was adamant that we wouldn’t force our child to study excessively, but we’re at 7 years old and we have a 50cm stack of extra activities books that need to be worked through every morning and evening, in addition to the homework the school sets. It’s madness. The class teacher told me he’s not even involved with setting homework.

I certainly wasn’t expected to do any homework at 7. It wasn’t until middle school we were expected to do some amount of homework.

Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#219

Post by Der_Einzige »

elif wrote: post #178
pbmonster wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pedestrian deaths in the US are up 78% since 2009. [0] [0] https://www.construction-physics.com/p/why-are-so-many-pedes...

The increase is mostly attributable to 30-39 year olds on arterial highways at night. Kids playing on neighborhood streets show continued improvement... In fact IIHS pedestrian fatality data says that 1-13 year olds are the group with the HIGHEST reduction

This exchange shows why I don’t trust most people who initially through statistics out on the internet. It takes a real autist to come in with the correct reading of it.

Re: How getting richer made teenagers less free

#220

Post by Aeolun »

Glawen wrote: post #193
sekai wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When my spouse and I were dating, we made fun of those “overly involved parents” who tried to live vicariously through their kids and over-scheduled them. > Since having kids, my spouse has (over a one year period) put our 5 year old in: T-ball, swimming, dance, theater, Sunday school, church, soccer, gymnastics, library group sessions, and to my absolute bewilderment and dismay—beauty pageants. On any given week,…

> Parents appear increasingly terrified of childhood boredom, and thus meticulously cram their children's schedules with activities they feel are "crucial" for "development". It's insidious, but when my kids have nothing to do, and I see them on the phone. I don't like it and I feel the urge to plan an activity.

Uh, when my son asks me for the phone, I say no, and he asks me why, I just tell him it’s because I think being bored once in a while is healthy. As long as the rules around using it are consistent he can work with that (he’ll start running to get to the bus/train on time too, because he can only use a phone if he can sit down)
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