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A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

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Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Punctual plugs are not as great as cauterization for multiple reasons. Firstly, plugs keep dropping off and getting lost over time. Secondly, they probably won't seal the gap fully. The lipid emission will heal partially if one supplements vitamin A (10k IU) softgel, omega-3 triglyceride ester, taurine, and at least 4K IU of vitamin D3. It will heal enough to work. The D3 in this dose is for freezing autoimmune degen…

Before committing to plugs, I tried temporary plugs made of (essentially) collagen. They completely seal the tear ducts, and they were just as effective as my current plugs. And my plugs have been in place for 10 years so far. > The lipid emission will heal partially if one supplements vitamin A (10k IU) softgel, omega-3 triglyceride ester, taurine, and at least 4K IU of vitamin D3. It will heal enough to work. Omega…

> PFHO

Here we go again with the PFAS. It is the stuff to prefer the least, not the most.

> I'm getting D3 and A from multivitamins

That fails completely because they almost always don't have softgel oil-dissolve forms or the right dose at all. They're generally very far from it. It is exactly what leads to the autoimmune issue of dry eyes in the first place.

Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could try this: Visomitin (Emoxipine/Mexidol) eye drops are a Russian-developed antioxidant medication known for treating dry eyes, fatigue, radiation damage, and improving vision, working to protect eye cells from damage (oxidative stress), but it's not widely available or FDA-approved in the US, requiring international purchase or specific prescriptions, often used for cataracts or post-surgery recovery, focusi…

> Visomitin (Emoxipine/Mexidol) eye drops are a Russian-developed antioxidant medication known for treating dry eyes, fatigue, radiation damage, and improving vision I wouldn't recommend it. A quick search shows that it's not proven to do anything at all but it's also advertised as being the cure for parkinson's, asthma, back pain, high cholesterol levels, anxiety, blood clots, glaucoma, and Huntington’s disease whil…

I wouldn't be too sure or cocky because it does have a very broad mechanism of action that does cast a wide net. Humility is warranted.

Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teflon is also PFAS. The whole PFAS scare is overblown.

> The whole PFAS scare is overblown. You have absolutely no idea of what you're talking about. If you actually think the scare is overblown, I dare you to drink the whole bottle of that eyedrop.

> You have absolutely no idea of what you're talking about.

I do.

1. "PFAS" is a technically incorrect term. 2. It's ridiculously broad. Teflon is PFAS, sevoflurane is PFAS, and so on.

> If you actually think the scare is overblown, I dare you to drink the whole bottle of that eyedrop.

They literally use the same liquid to FILL THE EYEBALLS after retinal surgery. It's been approved for 25 years. A bottle of eyedrops has 4 milliliters of it, and it would do essentially nothing if swallowed.

Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before committing to plugs, I tried temporary plugs made of (essentially) collagen. They completely seal the tear ducts, and they were just as effective as my current plugs. And my plugs have been in place for 10 years so far. > The lipid emission will heal partially if one supplements vitamin A (10k IU) softgel, omega-3 triglyceride ester, taurine, and at least 4K IU of vitamin D3. It will heal enough to work. Omega…

> PFHO Here we go again with the PFAS. It is the stuff to prefer the least, not the most. > I'm getting D3 and A from multivitamins That fails completely because they almost always don't have softgel oil-dissolve forms or the right dose at all. They're generally very far from it. It is exactly what leads to the autoimmune issue of dry eyes in the first place.

Yeah, yeah. Sure.

> That fails completely because they almost always don't have softgel oil-dissolve forms or the right dose at all

I tried tons of forms. My current ones are gel-filled capsules. Rather large ones, at that.

Sorry, but there's a huge amount of scholarly literature on this question. I've read tons of it over the years, and there is NO magical supplement that does anything but mildly improve the situation.

Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#215
post #8

FYI for anyone who isn't familiar with the wacky US insurance situation: Nobody in the US actually pays $800 for the drug. That's the "list price" for insurance companies to pay. Even insurance companies don't pay that price because they negotiate their own rates with the drug companies, which are lower. Then the drug companies come in and offer a "savings card" which you apply at the pharmacy like another layer of i…

Except when for example your insurer choses to have certain exclusions.

For example, my insurer does not cover weight loss medication. So starting next year, I'm on the hook for the $650 / month.

I could of course stay fat, get diabetes and then get on Mounjaro, which is covered.

Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whenever I go to the US, I have a shopping list to restock our medicine cabinet Ha, that's funny, I do something kind of like that when I go to the UK. Though it's just one medicine -- Kwells. Easily available OTC there, not available at all here in the US except as a prescription-only transdermal patch.

Aha! I have heard Americans say they buy Buscopan for IBS when in the Uk as it’s not available at all in the US and it has the same active ingredient! I had no idea it was good for nausea too.

I think Buscopan is different. Apparently hycosine hydrobromide (Kwells, Scopolamine) can cross the blood-brain barrier, while hyoscine butylbromide (Buscopan, a derivative of hycosine hydrobromide) cannot. The effect on the body seems pretty dissimilar.

Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best thing about universal healthcare isn't how much money I may or may not have to pay, it's that I literally don't once have to think about a bill or filling out a form to avoid paying too much. I wouldn't care if I ended up paying more in tax than I would in an insurance model. The benefit is being able to 100% focus on my health instead of navigating a system to try to reduce what I'm paying. When you're diag…

Trust me it doesn’t work perfectly in other countries. Yes, americas system is messed up but in countries like Sweden you will still have to navigate the system to actually get the healthcare you need. There are people who are denied healthcare in Sweden because the govt has deemed that it’s too expensive to save them (while people with similar conditions and a good insurance in the US are covered).

> There are people who are denied healthcare in Sweden because the govt has deemed that it’s too expensive to save them

but how many people are deemed too poor to save in the US, when sweden gov't would've easily have had the same medical procedure provided at low cost?

Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that might be worse than just having the high price. Such a kafka-esque systems just to get medicine.

It's the efficiency of capitalism at work. It's more efficient to allocate capital to systems and processes that delay or stop you claiming on your insurance than it is to actually pay out a genuine claim.

This has nothing to do with capitalism, and everything to do with regulatory capture and archaic rules established in a bygone era for a purpose that has since been outlived.

Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#219
As someone mentioned already, list prices are completely fictitious. Their purpose is to anchor medical payers during reimbursement negotiations and satisfy PBMs (see below). The allowed price (the price that the payer pays to the drug company) is much, much lower, 70-90% or so in many cases. Thus, juxtaposing OTC and list price is not an apples-to-apples comparison.

That being said, US drug prices are 2-4 times higher than they are elsewhere. In fact, the US market essentially subsidizes international drug markets, where it is much more difficult to charge higher rates due to regulations and lower purchasing power. This also means that, even if the allowed price in the US were known in this example, it would still have to be PPP adjusted to be compared.

Prescription card coupons such as those you get from GoodRx et al apply only to cash prices. These are sometimes lower and sometimes higher than what you’d pay out of pocket with your insurance. to compare, you’d basically have to ask the pharmacy to ring up a drug twice, once with cash price + coupon and once with insurance price.

“Copay assistance” are programs by drug manufacturers, PBMs, or employers to defray the cost of drug prices. This is usually done for specialty drugs that are much more expensive and can often only be purchased from a mail order pharmacy designated by the payer. For example, United Health (left pocket) will only cover the drugs if you get them from their Optum Specialty Pharmacy (right pocket).

As for numbers, here an example: I’m receiving a monthly specialty drug that my insurance is billed ~$9,000/month. In order to arrive at that figure, the drug company proposed, say, a $50k/month list price, and my insurer countered with $9k, using the size of their member pool as leverage. Of course, the drug manufacturer knew they would arrive at approx that figure, which is why they started negotiating that high. Well, sorta. The PBM gets compensated based on a % of the “savings” (spread between list price and final price), so naturally, they want as high as possible a list price, because 5% of a big amount (in my example: $50k-$9k = $41k) than 5% of a smaller amount. Because the PBM often has most of the leverage, the drug manufacturers (most of whom actually dislike PBMs) have to go along with this stupidity.

How much of the $9k I pay depends on a variety of factors, including my insurance plan, which has a specialty drug tier. This means the drug is not handled via the cost sharing accounting mechanism (deductible/copay).

Now, through that specialty tier, my monthly responsibility is set at approx $1,300. I’m not privy to the math behind this, because my insurer has outsourced all drug-related administration to a PBM, which is only loosely regulated and doesn’t even have to issue explanation of benefit statements that would normally disclose the full accounting.

Of the $1,300, I pay nothing, because the drug manufacturer provides me with a copay assistance card. Again, they must keep the list price high to placate the PBM.

I’ve simplified a few things here. For instance, there are now alternative comp models for PBMs. But for those, PBMs have also found ways to manipulate the system in their favor (eg colluding with drug manufacturers). There’s also often a wholesaler involved in the “value” chain.

But by and large, this is roughly how it works…

And yes, individual market plans are substantially inferior. Not only do they have lower actuarial values and higher cost per $ of coverage (which is unavoidable, because they are not risk pools) and narrower networks, but they also usually have built-in mechanisms to further prune away coverage in many subtle ways (they have that in common with self-insured plans): - more prior approvals, - “step therapy” (must first not tolerate cheaper drugs before can receive pricier drug), - not covering the pricier drug tier at all, etc.

These things shave some dollars off the premium, which appeals to price-elastic consumers and employers.

Re: A $20 drug in Europe requires a prescription and $800 in the U.S.

#220
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone know what's going on with the ACA marketplace? I like to take a peek at it every so often and it's just stupendously worse than employer healthcare. There is no plan in my market (Idaho) which doesn't have extreme out of network deductibles. The cost is also identical to what I and my employer pay for insurance. Is it just that the ACA is mostly used by sick people or something?

For one thing, as I understand it, the ACA was pretty effectively sabotaged by removing the mandate, which destroys the math that makes insurance work. Because pre-existing conditions have to be covered, you're free to wait until you have a serious (expensive) condition, then sign up for an ACA plan. And there's no mandate that spreads that risk around to healthy people, so the population is severely skewed. I have n…

Even with the individual mandate, it seems self evident that incentives are for private insurance companies to happily take in the extra premiums from healthy people, and then drop or have prohibitively high premiums after people get sick. The medical loss ratio tries to mitigate this, but just kicks the can down the road where the incentive becomes to dump the money into administrative overhead and self-dealing with providers/pharmacies run by affiliated companies.
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