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Redmond, WA, turns off Flock Safety cameras after ICE arrests

seattletimes.com

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Re: Redmond, WA, turns off Flock Safety cameras after ICE arrests

#211

Post by stonogo »

pton_xd wrote: post #12

What did they think would happen? Installing surveillance systems to monitor people is acceptable, as long as they're only used against the majority? I don't understand the logic here.

It's apparently against Washington state law for local law enforcement to assist immigration enforcement: https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=10.93.160

Specifically interesting is the section "State and local law enforcement agencies may not provide nonpublicly available personal information about an individual..." which puts police in a bind with Flock data: if the data is public, anyone can request it (including ICE) and they have to provide it to all comers. If they declare it not to be subject to public records request, then they also can't share it with ICE -- which is outside their control in practice, since Flock independently sells access to AI summaries of the data. In the face of this contradiction, turning the things off seems to be the only way to stay legal until the courts get done chewing on this.

Re: Redmond, WA, turns off Flock Safety cameras after ICE arrests

#212

Post by estearum »

QuantumFunnel wrote: post #81
estearum wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't understand the logic of "there are some crime problems we're willing to accept more intrusions to solve than other crime problems?" Seems like something virtually everyone believes, and all that changes is where they draw the line of balance between intrusion and safety.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

And yet every society makes exactly this trade off.

There is no such thing as avoiding this trade off entirely.

Re: Redmond, WA, turns off Flock Safety cameras after ICE arrests

#213

Post by relaxing »

pessimizer wrote: post #199
mothballed wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lesson learned is that people going to their immigration hearings to stay legal are getting nabbed, and going the legal way is a convoluted recipe for failure. As soon as enforcement lets up an iota the lesson will be it is wiser to stay off paper and off the visa pathway and go underground. People who aren't arrested and don't present to CBP for entry and don't get a visa, as far as the government knows, don't e…

This is not "the legal way." The people going to their immigration hearings to "stay legal" were apprehended as illegal immigrants, invited to come up with an excuse as to why they should be allowed to stay in the country, and released. You'll literally see "apprehension date" on their paperwork. The "legal way" is to apply for that stuff, then enter the country. It's annoying that people elide this. There is an ongo…

> The "legal way" is to apply for that stuff, then enter the country.

Which is next to impossible, particularly for immigrants who pick crops and process livestock. It’s annoying when people elide this.

> It's also weird that even those that have not been apprehended are issued IDs, work permits, business and drivers licenses, get in-state tuition as state schools, and in some places get to vote for local elections.

Or since those people pay taxes and are subject to governance, maybe it isn’t weird at all.

Re: Redmond, WA, turns off Flock Safety cameras after ICE arrests

#214

Post by Tadpole9181 »

potato3732842 wrote: post #202
Tadpole9181 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just victim blaming people for assuming they lived in a polite society with safeguards for their rights at a higher level. People are allowed to leverage trust in society to make tradeoffs. Or should we ban all forms of delivery because it can be abused at the extremes of the system to mug the drivers? Should every single store have every product locked behind glass and armed guards to light up any shoplifter…

>This is just victim blaming people for assuming they lived in a polite society with safeguards for their rights at a higher level. Karen (I actually have spicier thoughts about exactly who's at fault here but "Karen" will have to do) who provided the political will to set up the cameras is not the victim here. Her hapless landscaper (or whatever) is the victim. This was not unforeseeable. This was playing with fire.…

> This is a BS red herring.

"I don't respect facts I don't like" is not a very respectable point of view and makes me not want to engage at all.

> with cell location data, metadata, private security cameras, etc

I'm sure you'd argue that the government should have access to all of that data and it could never be used for "jackbooting"?

EDIT: Even if you did genuinely support all that, you're doing exactly what this city did! Making a subjective judgement call about where to put the proverbial line, but still giving the government the ability to use this data because you value its ability to benefit us / provide safety guarantees.

All that data can just as easily be stolen and abused by a fascist government.

> It's so that the .gov can still do jackboot things (like round up illegals, or whatever)

You are quite literally posting in the context of TFA about them turning them off explicitly because they did not intend them to be used for "jackboot things". FFS.

Re: Redmond, WA, turns off Flock Safety cameras after ICE arrests

#215

Post by [deleted] »

expedition32 wrote: post #187
Tadpole9181 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird. There's an article right here showing them turning off the cameras when the line was crossed and now that data can't be used the way they don't want. So clearly we're allowed more nuanced takes than you think.

I would hope so because no we are obviously not turning back the clock to a time when cameras did not exist. Most people kind of find surveillance cameras reassuring. They're installing them in my mom's apartment complex after a vote.

[deleted]

Re: Redmond, WA, turns off Flock Safety cameras after ICE arrests

#216

Post by mulmen »

expedition32 wrote: post #187
Tadpole9181 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird. There's an article right here showing them turning off the cameras when the line was crossed and now that data can't be used the way they don't want. So clearly we're allowed more nuanced takes than you think.

I would hope so because no we are obviously not turning back the clock to a time when cameras did not exist. Most people kind of find surveillance cameras reassuring. They're installing them in my mom's apartment complex after a vote.

Really depends who owns the footage. I’m installing cameras on my house but the NVR is local-only.

Re: Redmond, WA, turns off Flock Safety cameras after ICE arrests

#217

Post by helterskelter »

I'm in the PNW and they put Flock cameras up in my area recently. Nobody likes them (libs or cons), and we've seen some rather creative approaches to uh...disabling them. One person took a pipe cutter to the mount and spirited the whole unit away, another apparently fired a shotgun slug through it, somebody else looks like they used it to relieve their anger problems with a metal pipe.

Flock cameras, America's bipartisan issue?

Re: Redmond, WA, turns off Flock Safety cameras after ICE arrests

#218

Post by Izikiel43 »

estearum wrote: post #203
Izikiel43 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Biden has deported vastly greater numbers and a higher share of crossers, but it has not deterred people from crossing. ICE and Trump seem to be enough deterrent now, considering how the land encounters have reduced. > The logistics are such that once arrivals exceed the deportation machine’s capacity, people will find out and even more will come. This explains the huge ice funding increase.

Yes, breaking asylum and due process laws will be a deterrent. The question was always how to deter immigration legally , which prior POTUSes thought they had to care about. Re the funding increase: People to put handcuffs on wasn’t the bottleneck, so no it doesn’t. Immigration courts are the bottleneck, and actually jamming more low-level or non-offenders into the system exacerbates that problem.

> Yes, breaking asylum and due process laws will be a deterrent.

Unfortunately, TPS is up to the executive branch, not congress, so changing the duration is up to the executive branch discretion.

Re: Redmond, WA, turns off Flock Safety cameras after ICE arrests

#219

Post by remarkEon »

sunnyps wrote: post #60
ethanhunt_ wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Yeah, it's a nation. A nation of immigrants. Where did your great-great-great grandfather come from? Did he spontaneously erupt from this common ancestry and heritage that you speak of?

[flagged]

Re: Redmond, WA, turns off Flock Safety cameras after ICE arrests

#220

Post by reactordev »

helterskelter wrote: post #217

I'm in the PNW and they put Flock cameras up in my area recently. Nobody likes them (libs or cons), and we've seen some rather creative approaches to uh...disabling them. One person took a pipe cutter to the mount and spirited the whole unit away, another apparently fired a shotgun slug through it, somebody else looks like they used it to relieve their anger problems with a metal pipe. Flock cameras, America's bipart…

And yet they drive away in their GM/Ford/Nissan/Tesla/Any car/truck with its connected media unit and telemetry gathering infotainment systems and think “This is fine”.
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