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US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

thedailybeast.com

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Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#211

Post by danaris »

mothballed wrote: post #4

It's wild ATC isn't funded by use fees instead of being appropriated by congress. Seems like a good opportunity to provide some mechanism so the government has to shit or get off the pot, because if the government won't do the job the airlines would surely be glad to pay for the service themselves.

The problem isn't that ATC is funded by the government; it's that the government has been taken over by people who don't believe government should exist.

This is a fundamental failure state that it is impossible for any realistic governmental structure to protect against. The best we can do is put in place safeguards to make it harder.

And...we did. It's just that over the past 40 years or so (and increasingly so over the past 15ish), those safeguards have been systematically eroded by the Republican Party, both socially and legally.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#212

Post by asdfasvea »

ajross wrote: post #40
ecshafer wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Government only works via compromise. Yes, either side could capitulate. Honestly "give this popular subsidy a vote" seems more like compromise to me than your idea. Also, and mostly unrelated: does anyone find it funny that the ACA stopped being "Obamacare" the instant it became popular?

Thats not really the ACA\Obamacare story, but it's still funny:

https://navigatorresearch.org/the-affordable-care-act-remain...

Explain the program and then call it'ACA' and people loved it. Explain the program and call it 'Obamacare' and polled people disliked it.

Shakespeare was wrong about roses.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#213

Post by paulryanrogers »

thrance wrote: post #206
paulryanrogers wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why the Democrats have allowed this is beyond me. Republicans control all three branches of government. What can Democrats do except filibuster and budgetary maneuvers like they're already doing? Democrats already tried (briefly) going along with the inhumane BBB and Republicans kept cutting and disregarding the law anyway.

Democrats should be counter-messaging every hours of every day, on all media, to create actual dissent within the electorate. They're acting like they can't do anything but watch idly. It's insane that with all that happened, Trump still sits at ~40% popularity. Americans won't realize how shitty the situation is until you tell them, and make sure to blame Trump and the GOP every step of the process. Insurance premiu…

Democratic representatives are speaking out almost daily. Voters are protesting in force at least monthly.

Yet too many live in filter bubbles and take the talking points they're given. My conservative parents sound very reasonable when they react to unfiltered news, at least in the moment. But then the talking points arrive and they down play or change their outlook completely. It's like a Borg mind which sometimes has high latency.

And I can relate. I lived with that mindset. Teaching myself to twist information to fit the worldview and compartmentalize to dodge the dissonance. Visiting only the safe outlets who would reinforce the comfortable and familiar perspective. Thankfully public schools, the Internet, patient coworkers, and curiosity popped my bubble.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#215

Post by mikeocool »

tbrownaw wrote: post #207
mikeocool wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that’s the nature of how the Senate has worked at least the last 50 years. If you want a bill to pass, you need to propose one that’s going to get 60 votes. And it’s up the majority party to propose that bill, since the majority leader by and large controls what bills make it to the floor. Bringing a budget bill that doesn’t have 60 votes and then refusing to negotiate isn’t members of the minority party failing…

IOW the minority party has a moral right to get their way on any issue they can prevent defectors about. And the majority party doesn't.

The majority gets to block any bill they want by not bringing it to the floor. The minority can only block bills by not allowing them to get to 60 votes.

Budgets are a little different, since you kind of have to pass one to have a functioning government — so you need to build a 60 vote coalition, and since the majority proposes the bill it’s up to them to offer a budget that builds that coalition.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#216

Post by krisoft »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #145
krisoft wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a service provided to the public. Seems like a natural fit for being run by government. I don't understand this part of your reasoning. It sounds like you are saying it is a service provided to the public therefore it is a natural fit for being run by the government. Do I understand your reasoning right? Because if so: A lot of services are provided to the public. For example baking bread. Should every baker b…

The difference here is that everyone needs air traffic control and there's zero choices so a market structure doesn't make sense. With bread, maybe I only like certain types of bread. Maybe I don't want bread. It makes sense for there to be a market with diverse offerings. If bread inputs get expensive maybe everyone pivots to eating potatoes. In contrast if you want to fly out of a major city there's one major airpo…

> The difference here is that everyone needs air traffic control

This is very much not true. People who don’t own or operate aircraft don’t need air traffic control.

> and there's zero choices

Probably what you are saying here is that air traffic control is a natural monopoly. You can’t have two (or more) paralel systems issuing clearances at the same time in the same airspace. That would be madness.

But what I’m saying is not that we should have some crazy capitalist system where rival air traffic controllers compete with each other in the same airspace. What I’m talking about is a system where air traffic control services are provided by a private company. A private company which is funded by service charges to aircraft operators, and one whose operations are regulated by the government.

You can argue why that is not possible, but this is exactly how Canada’s air traffic control is organised. There the air traffic controllers are employed by a non-profit corporation which is funded by service charges. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nav_Canada

Similarly air traffic controllers in the UK are employed by the NATS which is a public-private partnership.

Germany has a similar structure with Deutsche Flugsicherung, or switzerland with Skyguide (formerly known as Swisscontrol).

When you are arguing why it cannot work, you are arguing against all these examples.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#217

Post by aaomidi »

philipwhiuk wrote: post #55
throwaway173738 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a whole network of radars and communication centers that are not part of any specific airport. How would you fund that through use fees at an airport?

You could do airspace overflight fees similar to how it works when you overfly other countries. It would make routing a tonne more complex tho

Okay what happens now to less prosperous areas of the country?

This is a silly decision because transportation networks are important for the rest of the country to be able to be economically viable.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#218

Post by consumer451 »

rainsford wrote: post #115
e40 wrote: post #3

Remember, the pain this is causing everyone means less to the people in power than does the benefits of this shutdown (to them). We can argue about what those benefits are all day long, but they wouldn't be refusing to have discussions with the Dems if there were not some benefit, be it political power they can wield, or whatever.

The problem is that it's existential for both Democrats and Republicans. Given the current makeup of the federal government, Republicans basically have all the power and have been able to leverage that into spending the last 10 months doing whatever they want. The exception to that power is the Democrats' ability to filibuster in the Senate and shut down the government by not agreeing to whatever the Republicans put…

> I’m glad there’s OxyContin and video games to keep those people quiet.

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#219

Post by Tiktaalik »

krisoft wrote: post #216
Tiktaalik wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference here is that everyone needs air traffic control and there's zero choices so a market structure doesn't make sense. With bread, maybe I only like certain types of bread. Maybe I don't want bread. It makes sense for there to be a market with diverse offerings. If bread inputs get expensive maybe everyone pivots to eating potatoes. In contrast if you want to fly out of a major city there's one major airpo…

> The difference here is that everyone needs air traffic control This is very much not true. People who don’t own or operate aircraft don’t need air traffic control. > and there's zero choices Probably what you are saying here is that air traffic control is a natural monopoly. You can’t have two (or more) paralel systems issuing clearances at the same time in the same airspace. That would be madness. But what I’m say…

Yea that's the point I'm making that it's a natural monopoly. And yea the examples you provide are another way to handle a monopoly, though it's not really clear to me what the comprehensive benefits actually would be. Other than to create an appearance of arms length from government.

Would have the upside of not being shutdown due to the USA's crazy government shutdown nonsense, tho possibly you still have the shutdowns of a union strike.

Kind of reminds me about how people slip up and occasionally call BC Ferries a crown corporation, and are corrected that no, actually BC Ferries is an independent, company, simply one with the sole monopoly contract to provide ferry service that is 100% owned by BC Ferry Authority, which is... owned by the Province and whose board is 44% selected by the Province (another 44% by municipalities, who are creatures of the Province).

(boy sure does sound like a crown corporation...)

Re: US air traffic controllers start resigning as shutdown bites

#220

Post by viccis »

forinti wrote: post #155

Are there any laws that protect labour in the US? Will they get their salaries and some extra compensation for the tardiness?

>Are there any laws that protect labour in the US?

Air traffic controllers are famously a group of people who were just mass fired for striking. These days the laws in the US actually protect the airlines from them by making it illegal for them to strike.

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