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Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

coffee.link

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Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#211

Post by PhilKunz »

marcusb wrote: post #196
PhilKunz wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it the only peering of Starlink though?

? My comment had nothing to do with Starlink. Your first example I was referring to - which you've now edited out of the article[0] to be more generic - stated: > When Deutsche Telekom customers want to watch YouTube, that traffic flows directly from Google's network to Deutsche Telekom's network at a Frankfurt exchange point—maybe four or five router hops, minimal latency, no intermediaries. It's elegant. It's effic…

fair enough. I replied to the wrong comment. Sorry for that.

coffee.link is getting a git based version feature to make changes more transparent.

Also there is a deno (+ electron for GUI version) based testing tool coming to better understand network routes.

Additionally I plan to do a well researched series called "How does the internet work".

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#212

Post by inemesitaffia »

PhilKunz wrote: post #210
noAnswer wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know who else is gold partner and at IXes?! Inter.link! https://inter.link/google-verified-peering-provider/ "As Google discontinues its direct peering agreements at Internet Exchanges worldwide" Wait... does that mean that "Google is killing the open internet?!" Quick "write" a AI rage bait article about it.

I've learned quite a bit from the comments here, also got to see perspectives I wasn't focusing on. I've since then added a bit to the article about how one could be in favour of the deal. To be more transparent about changes, version history is coming to coffee.link. The question I'm having is: Where exactly do inter.link and Google peer? Like either they are both at a public IXP (which would mean Google is not actu…

An ixp is a switching fabric not a building(NAP).

At the same building where you connected with Vodafone in the past, you connect to interlink instead.

Instead of one to many you connect one to one.

Just to clarify one thing, the fact that's you're connected to an ixp doesn't automatically mean you have to accept any routes or traffic over it. And yes some of them allow you to sell/buy transit over the IXP fabric so instead of buying one connection for transit and another for settlement free pairing over the IXP, you do all that over one physical connection

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#213

Post by inemesitaffia »

techsupporter wrote: post #97
phineyes wrote: post #14

This isn't unique to Vodafone. Google has also been slowly withdrawing from IXes globally in favor of PNIs and "VPPs" (verified peering providers). This only makes it harder for smaller networks to establish presence on the internet and feels pretty anti-competitive. On the flip side, IXes are becoming harder and less desirable to participate in: port fees are going up, useful networks are withdrawing, low quality ne…

> low quality network participants are joining (Genuinely curious because I truly don't know in this context) What is a low quality network participant? One of the "bulletproof" hosts?

Malware, flapping, bogons, remote peers, etc

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#214

Post by inemesitaffia »

hylaride wrote: post #15

Bell Canada also has had a long-standing policy of refusing to peer with internet exchanges. They'll only truly peer with other direct backbone providers and a handful of one-off peer with other large networks (google, cloud flare, etc), but their historical position as Canada's base backbone (not so much anymore, but it was definitely a thing pre-2005) has meant their policy is most people should pay them to peer. I…

It's not unusual for incumbents to refuse to peer in their own country.

See Telstra(Australia), the Korean Telcos, NTT(in Asia), Globacom (Nigeria) etc

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#215

Post by inemesitaffia »

sunaookami wrote: post #162
pimeys wrote: post #55

Awesome. The only internet connection we get IN THE MIDDLE OF BERLIN is Vodafone Cable. Deutsche Telekom wants to build fiber here, but our landlord refuses to open the door to the cellar because he wants to kick everybody out and raise the rent for new tenants. What a time to be alive.

Deutsche Telekom peering is infamous for being bad, they want extremely high fees that not even Meta is willing to pay: https://about.fb.com/de/news/2024/09/warum-wir-unsere-direkt...

Meta doesn't want to pay anything. Not even Cogent/HE transit rates

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#216

Post by inemesitaffia »

wmf wrote: post #106
kbolino wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two issues here. If the CDN is so poorly interconnected with Vodafone that there's one bottlenecked link, then it's not really accomplishing its job, at least as far as "inside of Germany" is concerned. It might have reduced pressure on another bottleneck, like links between the US and the EU, but it still needs to spread out more. If Vodafone is blocking that, then pressure should be applied to force them…

Nah, you're just an apologist for rent-seeking ISPs and you're trying to cloud the argument with unnecessary details.

There's no requirement for providers to peer settlement free.

See Chinese providers who will happily buy transit from everyone but make sure it's choked

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#218

Post by inemesitaffia »

fweimer wrote: post #34

Is doing business with Inter.link really structurally different from getting connectivity to an exchange like DE-CIX and doing business there? I know that in theory, you get settlement-free peering at exchanges, but only for those networks that participate. And who funds Inter.link? Their publicly available balance sheet shows significant, growing debts to a linked company, but it doesn't mention its name.

Depends what exactly you're buying from them L2 yes. L3 no

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#219

Post by inemesitaffia »

rsingel wrote: post #31
stego-tech wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, as US ISPs have been repeatedly trying to game the system into becoming landlords for decades. The difference is, ironically, their own self-imposed monopolies: Comcast may be a T1 ISP, but they’re largely a monopoly in the markets they serve. Same goes for Verizon, Spectrum, Cox, TDS, etc. The end result is a sort of “forced cooperation” with each other, though occasionally one will try to extort the oth…

California's net neutrality law bans these kinds of paid interconnections, but they likely exist as all these deals are wrapped in 15 layers of NDAs

California bans "fast lanes" and service plan bundles i.e Facebook and YouTube internet plans.

No one's allowing you to plug X x 100G into their eyeball network for free

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#220

Post by inemesitaffia »

uyzstvqs wrote: post #46

It's very simple. I host my stuff on a network with an open peering policy. If you as an ISP somehow have peering issues with that, then that's a you problem . I will not pay a ransom to some shady middleman that you decide to use because your network admins are too lazy. I will (rightfully) blame you and tell your customers to switch ISPs if they have issues. Play stupid games, win stupid prices. Just wait until Vod…

The network is buying transit from someone
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