Earlier quoted context omitted.
This outage would've required cross region failover to be immune to. We'll see if customers switch to whatever company was resilient, but this has happened before and the answer was no.
The company I work for has a ton of stuff in us-east-1, many large products and sites, and we didn't go down. Our products/services aren't multi-region or multi-cloud. We don't pay exorbitant bills or have super complicated architectures.
AWS outage shows internet users 'at mercy' of too few providers, experts say
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Re: AWS outage shows internet users 'at mercy' of too few providers, experts say
#212This is not a provider scarcity problem - there are numerous providers out there, but user's problem - they voluntarily choose crappy service at large scale, believing sales managers "it's reliable".
It is reliable. Even considering the inflated availability numbers, it's stupidly reliable.
Re: AWS outage shows internet users 'at mercy' of too few providers, experts say
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is reliable. Even considering the inflated availability numbers, it's stupidly reliable.
Recent (and not so recent) events prove it isn't, or is it?
Term | Definition | Measurement
-------------- ----------------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Availability | Basically, system uptime | A percentage over time
Durability | Basically, persistence of data | A percentage over time
Resiliency | Basically, self-healing | A probability within a time period (usually)
Reliability | Basically, operational probability | A probability within a time period (usually)
Fault tolerant | Basically, it cannot fail | Binary (it has faults or it doesn't)
Unlike more mathy fields, reliability is more of a "quality" that is qualified by one or more measurements (like Mean Time Between Failure). You define your metric, you give an estimate of what that value should be, and if you come in under it, you're reliable.AWS has always stretched the truth when it comes to these numbers, but they do come pretty close to them most of the time. If you can find a different provider who'll even offer a number, it is usually not as close, and there's usually no contract that has any teeth to enforce it. Or they'll give very vague claims that don't get into specifics.
At least, not for "cloud providers" (other than the hyperscalers). You can find a datacenter who'll give you a number, but that's for like, their power reliability. That's a very different thing than saying "there is X probability over Y time that a server I run for you will not go down". Partly because it's pretty freakin' hard to wrangle all the different things that can go wrong with so much certainty that you can put a number on it. So most people give things like reliability, durability, availability, etc numbers for specific components of a system.
AWS S3 offers 99.999999999% durability and 99.99% availability. Now, did AWS S3 go down completely during the outage? Not as far as I'm aware. Maybe the control plane did, or a management portal, or billing, or something? But I'll bet you the PUT, GET, DELETE operations kept on flowing within 99.99% availability. Some other components in AWS may have been failing like crazy (which may have no guarantees...), but that one component probably stayed up within its guaranteed amount.
Design your apps to run on AWS using the components with specific guarantees, and you can estimate how reliable your end product will be. As far as I know, nobody has a better track record for meeting the guarantees. Even considering events like this.
Re: AWS outage shows internet users 'at mercy' of too few providers, experts say
#214Re: AWS outage shows internet users 'at mercy' of too few providers, experts say
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
> "Oops, Jim Bob tripped over the power cord, guess we won't get any emails until the IT guy shows up" - this used to be a routine experience. You're not entirely wrong, but you're being hyperbolic too. I'm actually curious how old you are / how long you've worked in tech, because I started out pre-cloud and things weren't nearly as bad or as limited as you suggest. First, on-prem servers are not the only alternative…
I've never managed IT professionally myself (pre-cloud or otherwise), so a lot of my information comes from family members who do, but my impression is that bare metal rental and colo centers weren't realistic options for any but the most technically sophisticated organizations. I know schools, stores, even research centers who went straight from on-prem to managed cloud with no real consideration for anything in bet…
When that company went under during the dot-com crash, I started my first business shortly after. It was 2003, I was 21 years-old and this business allowed me to work from home and feed my family until I re-entered the job market in 2018. For 15 years, I was a one-person organization, and because my business operated "free" adult-entertainment websites, bandwidth was my most significant expense. For that reason, even when Cloud became a thing (which it wasn't in 2003), I never migrated because of the bandwidth costs alone. Cloudflare was a major game changer but even it didn't exist when I first started out. There were CDNs like Akamai but they were crazy expensive and out of my league. So at its peak, I had about 12 bare metal servers around the world (all rented from the same hosting company - original called Server Matrix it then became Softlayer and then was bought by IBM and went to shit and is now IBM Cloud). I admin'd those on top of writing and maintaining all of the code and running the business independently with occasional help from my wife.
I am obviously very technically competent. I'm a Principal Software Engineer today. But technically sophisticated? There wasn't much sophistication about it. I did bare metal servers because it was the only cost-effective way to run my business. It was attainable and it worked. And it worked in a way that Cloud couldn't when Cloud came on the scene - so I never went Cloud with that operation just due to cost alone.
Re: AWS outage shows internet users 'at mercy' of too few providers, experts say
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
The company I work for has a ton of stuff in us-east-1, many large products and sites, and we didn't go down. Our products/services aren't multi-region or multi-cloud. We don't pay exorbitant bills or have super complicated architectures.
If you were using AWS services that went down in us-east-1, how did you avoid an outage without failing over to anything outside that region?
The outage wasn't like "all our servers stopped running". It was dynamic, new, specific operations that failed. If you just had a Fargate container that was started a week ago, and you have no need to restart the container today, it just kept chugging along.
Our architecture is stuff that just keeps chugging along. Fargate, S3, RDS, CloudFront, CloudFlare, etc. From our perspective, there was no outage in us-east-1. Literally the only alert we got the entire time was "billing limit exceeded" - and that was a false alarm, because it was set to alarm if there is zero billing data.
Re: AWS outage shows internet users 'at mercy' of too few providers, experts say
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think storage cost is the reason, more that it's hard to design for regional failures. DB by itself as one example, cross region read replica usually introduces eventual consistency to a system that'd otherwise be immediately consistent.
Well yeah, but that's why we get paid the big bucks right?
Re: AWS outage shows internet users 'at mercy' of too few providers, experts say
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think storage cost is the reason, more that it's hard to design for regional failures. DB by itself as one example, cross region read replica usually introduces eventual consistency to a system that'd otherwise be immediately consistent.
Thanks for the helpful reply! Do you think that would be still true if one accepted a constraint of the "down" version of the property served had data that was stale, say 24 hours behind what the user would have seen had they been logged in?
Re: AWS outage shows internet users 'at mercy' of too few providers, experts say
#219The 'experts' also made similar criticisms with the Fastly outage in 2021 and did anything obvious change as a result? In a week's time no national newspapers will be talking about this. Meanwhile, everyone that spends actual time in these areas: - Knows that running an operation at AWS scale is difficult and any armchair critism from 'experts' is exactly that. Actions speak louder than words. - Understands that the…
I think all of that is mostly irrelevant. You don't need to pay a huge cost to avoid the small benefit, you don't need every service to be resilient to this, or any of that. You just need multiple different providers so that not everyone gets screwed at once.
Re: AWS outage shows internet users 'at mercy' of too few providers, experts say
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you were using AWS services that went down in us-east-1, how did you avoid an outage without failing over to anything outside that region?
That's the thing - most AWS services didn't "go down", as in stop working entirely. There were specific operations of specific services that were failing. Increased API error rates, inability to start new EC2 instances, billing metrics unavailable, AWS console unavailable, etc. The outage wasn't like "all our servers stopped running". It was dynamic, new, specific operations that failed. If you just had a Fargate con…