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Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

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Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#211

Post by andrepd »

teiferer wrote: post #205
jcz_nz wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very least, these folks need to have their names permanently attached to this atrocity. These weren’t decisions made by “a corporation” - these people sat across a meeting room table and actually concluded that targeting breast cancer patients was an acceptable means to an end. Lori A. Beer was the CIO at the time. Now at JP Morgan.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

It's a bit disingenuous to argue "they shouldn't get life without the possibility of parole" when in fact most of this economic white-collar crime goes completely unpunished, or at best gets a fine targeted at the company and never at the individual people who committed the crimes.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#212

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl »

nerdsniper wrote: post #82
amelius wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the Hippocratic Oath works quite well even if it has no legal underpinnings, so why not use the same idea for developers? Indeed ACM and IEEE could draft one.

Not taking away from your point, but just a PSA: For some reason "First, do no harm" is synonymous with "Hippocratic Oath" in pop-culture. Just a reminder that this is apocryphal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath Surgeons, in fact, often begin with harm. To replace a hip joint, they necessarily must begin by causing great trauma to the body by cutting it open and removing bone.

That's far too literal an interpretation of harm. The point isn't to never do any kind of "physical harm". It's about doing the least amount of harm possible/necessary in any situation, where doing nothing can also be seen as causing harm.

I had a burst appendix as a teenager, leading to peritonitis. To treat this, surgeons were going to operate laparoscopically to remove the appendix and fix remove any contamination in the peritoneum. Obviously this required damaging my skin, removing an organ etc. which in the strictest sense is harm. But doing nothing at all would obviously lead to sepsis and death, so this was still the least harmful intervention. During the surgery, it turned out that the laparoscopic method was hard to carry out due to obesity and other factors. The attending made the decision to convert to a laporotomy, doing even more harm to my skin and leaving me with a 30 cm scar on my stomach. But it was the right call because it maximised the chances of accomplishing the goal of the procedure(preventing imminent death), minimising the risk of serious complications.

And here I am almost 20 years later. I have a scar, I have some adhesions that occasionally cause moderate abdominal pain if I don't eat enough fibre, and perhaps my lymphatic system and gut flora are very minorly compromised in some nebulous way due to the lack of an appendix. On the other hand, I'm alive. So yes, they "did harm", but they also minimised harm. And they didn't do any unnecessary harm, to the best of their ability. And that's the point of the ethical principle.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#213

Post by em-bee »

rfrey wrote: post #127
em-bee wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can avoid those even when unemployed that would be all developed countries except the united states

So yes, the extremely privileged

privileged? sure, but extremely?

nowadays even in china everyone gets healthcare, working or not, so we are talking about almost a quarter of the worlds population.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#214

Post by andrepd »

jcz_nz wrote: post #114

In 2010 WellPoint was found to be automatically targeting insurance policies of women with breast cancer for cancellation, using any pretext. Angela Braly was the CEO at the time, now at ExxonMobile. WellPoint was the second largest health insurer in the US at the time. This required a lot of business analysis and software development - and people had to realize what this code was doing. I’m guessing bonuses were pai…

Whistleblower protections need to be steel-solid. Then maybe just 1 person with a spine might be enough to get the story to the press and/or prosecutors.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#215

Post by yard2010 »

peterpeppers wrote: post #137
jcz_nz wrote: post #114

In 2010 WellPoint was found to be automatically targeting insurance policies of women with breast cancer for cancellation, using any pretext. Angela Braly was the CEO at the time, now at ExxonMobile. WellPoint was the second largest health insurer in the US at the time. This required a lot of business analysis and software development - and people had to realize what this code was doing. I’m guessing bonuses were pai…

In the 2010s, we had a similar situation but it wasn’t illegal. I used to work for a large drug distributor both pre and during the opioid epidemic. At the time (pre-SUPPORT Act), distributors weren’t required to notify the DEA about anomalous ordering so we didn’t provide data to law enforcement unless they sent a subpoena. To increase profits, we identified our best customers of opioids and updated our inventory tr…

It's so funny af that when people from the hood are doing it they get locked up or worse, and when business people do it they might as well be the president.

I guess there are some differences though. When a new pusher shows up in your territory you sue him, not going for a drive by.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#216

Post by flir »

teiferer wrote: post #205
jcz_nz wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very least, these folks need to have their names permanently attached to this atrocity. These weren’t decisions made by “a corporation” - these people sat across a meeting room table and actually concluded that targeting breast cancer patients was an acceptable means to an end. Lori A. Beer was the CIO at the time. Now at JP Morgan.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

Being struck off by professional organisations is a thing, though.

On the one hand I don't want the bar to this discipline raised. On the other hand, I don't want people like us (metaphorically) building bridges that tip every two hundredth car into the river.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#217

Post by andrepd »

ruszki wrote: post #187
zero_k wrote: post #29

I wish I could tell a story. Alas, I can't. It turns out that large corporations are excellent at hiding evidence of wrongdoing, and will do everything to cover the backside of high-level execs, because stock price matters. When it's bad, the exec leaves for a "better opportunity", and none will be wiser. The stress of the honest, serious engineer(s) remain, and the exec gets a free ride to their next big beautiful s…

It depends on the country. It’s not possible to operate large companies in Hungary without paying to the prime minister’s family. When I lived there, I signed a paper at a large multinational company as a simple developer. The paper’s only purpose was to channel EU funds to the family. I was naive, and I thought that it’s a real project, with real work. It wasn’t. Later I realised why some of my coworkers were agains…

It's extremely fucked up that the EU has this kind of kleptocratic autocracy in its midst not only stealing billions but actively sabotaging its operations, when people have been warning about Hungary for 15 years (the Tavares report is from 2010 I believe).

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#218

Post by catgary »

andrepd wrote: post #211
teiferer wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

It's a bit disingenuous to argue "they shouldn't get life without the possibility of parole" when in fact most of this economic white-collar crime goes completely unpunished, or at best gets a fine targeted at the company and never at the individual people who committed the crimes.

Most of these C-suite executives have more than enough money to retire comfortably.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#219

Post by noir_lord »

bloak wrote: post #36
pjc50 wrote: post #32

> Frank was a student loan startup founded by Charlie Javice in 2016. In 2019, Javice was featured on the Forbes “30 under 30” There was a joke going around Twitter about "30 under 30 doing 30 to life", because the startups involved were getting more and more outlandish to the extent that bystanders suspected that fraud was going on. Became a Guardian article: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/apr/06/forbes-3…

> UK libel law routinely covers up all sorts of things which the public would benefit from having revealed, simply by the threat of an expensive lawsuit. It makes investigative journalism really uneconomic. But the worst horror stories date from before it was last reformed, in 2013, I think, and I feel the need to patriotically point out that Australian libel law is even worse!

Another country having worse legislation doesn't really impact on how bad ours is though.

Bad is bad.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#220

Post by lolbert291 »

_9ptr wrote: post #188
bjt wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You might want to think about why Petersen wants you to think you’re the Nazi. What change is he trying to effect in our culture, and how does that belief support his desire? Rhetoric always aims to effect some change in the attitude of the listener, and never without some benefit of the speaker. What benefit do you think he's trying to get from it? I'm honestly trying to figure out the nefarious angle and coming u…

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