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ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

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Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#211

Post by superxpro12 »

nikkwong wrote: post #151

Imagine a future where it becomes easier to commit terrorism because of some technological advancements—like smaller, less traceable bombs, or chemical weapons that are easily accessible and lead to higher casualties—like in the 1,000s or more. Imagine in that scenario, that the likelihood of you or someone you know becoming the victim of a terrorist attack is now non-trivial in your society. In a future where this b…

It's not about the usefulness... it's that omnipotent surveillance creates a jarring imbalance of power between the surveillance state and the people.

If the employees of the state were subject to the same exact surveillance, then maybe it might be palatable.

Curiously, the Star Trek Universe exists in such a scenario. A common trope is asking the computer for evidence of a crime, where someone is at any time, etc. I've never heard complaints about this supposed contradiction between the utopia vision of Star Trek and the omnipotent, all-seeing computer.

But we all know the reality... a tale as old as time. The state will exclude themselves from the surveillance, and it will eventually be used as a tool for authoritarianism. It's only a matter of time with something as powerful as this.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#212

Post by zamadatix »

chmod775 wrote: post #60
zamadatix wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not familiar with EU law, but reading Title II article 7 and 8 makes me feel this could be an optimistic interpretation of what the Treaty of Lisbon guarantees. I'm sure the supporters of chat control would love to argue something like "ChatControl respects the private communications of an individual by protecting how the data is processed to ensure only the legitimate basis of processing the data is incurred by…

Even the EU council's legal service thinks the law as-proposed is probably incompatible with Article 7 and 8: > The CLS concludes that, in the light of the case law of the Court of Justice at this stage, the regime of the detection order, as currently provided for by the proposed Regulation with regard to interpersonal communications, constitutes a particularly serious limitation to the rights to privacy and personal…

I think there are variants of the ChatControl proposal which were clearly problematic, but the different variations of the proposal try to toe the line since. This report talks to the 2022 era proposal.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#213

Post by nikkwong »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #202
xp84 wrote: post #179

From the article, the current flavor of "threat" this is being positioned to fight is CSAM. Does anyone believe that predators commit those heinous offenses because of the availability of encrypted channels to distribute those products of their crimes? I sure don't. The materials exist because of predators' access to children, which these surveillance measures won't solve. Best case scenario (and this is wildly optim…

> Best case scenario (and this is wildly optimistic) the offenders won't be able to find any 'safe' channels to distribute their materials to each other. The theory is based on the documented fact that most crime is poorly thought through with terrible operational security. 41% is straight up opportunistic, spur of the moment, zero planning. It won't stop technologically savvy predators who plan things carefully ; bu…

Exactly. Econ 101: why do consumption taxes work at all? By increasing the amount of pain associated with purchasing a particular indulgent product, you decrease the consumption of that product on the margin. When you increase the price of cigarettes by 20%, cigarette smoking in a society decreases. But for the most addicted, no consumption tax will probably act as a deterrent.

Some individuals will find a way to distribute and consume child pornography no matter the cost. But other addicted individuals will stop consuming if doing so becomes so laborious because they are consuming or distributing on the margin. I.e, imagine the individual who doesn't want to be consuming it, who knows they shouldn't—this type of deterrent may be the breaking point that gets them to stop altogether. And if you reduce the amount of consumption or production by any measure, you decrease a hell of a lot of suffering.

But anyway, the goal of this legislation is not to drive the level of distribution to 0. The goal of policymakers could be seen charitably as an attempt to curtail consumption, because any reduction in consumption is a good thing.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#214

Post by 3pt14159 »

astroflection wrote: post #16

Governments should be transparent and the people should be opaque. Any government that attempts to make things otherwise looses legitimacy.

Governments need privacy. They literally investigate child mollestation cases. They hunt spies. They handle all sorts of messy things like divorce between couples with abuse.

I'm not commenting on the government coming in at unveiling encrypted communications, but certainly a better approach than "governments should be transparent and the people should be opaque" would be "governments should be translucent and the people should be translucent too".

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#215

Post by 1718627440 »

sjsdaiuasgdia wrote: post #193
_9ptr wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remove the first and last comma and the sentence works splendidly

Ok, get a 2/3 majority of the House and Senate to approve a proposed edit removing those commas, and then get 3/4 of the state legislatures to approve it. Until then, the commas are officially part of the text.

Comma rules change over time.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#216

Post by elAhmo »

Oh, is this the infamous 'redacted list of attendees' when people inquired about who initially worked on this legislation/proposal?

EU seems to be really good at some things, but this is an example of a legislation that can do way much harm than benefit.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#217

Post by blindriver »

xp84 wrote: post #179

From the article, the current flavor of "threat" this is being positioned to fight is CSAM. Does anyone believe that predators commit those heinous offenses because of the availability of encrypted channels to distribute those products of their crimes? I sure don't. The materials exist because of predators' access to children, which these surveillance measures won't solve. Best case scenario (and this is wildly optim…

This has nothing to do with csam and arguing that point is on purpose, to distract people and the politicians can say “xp84 supports child pornography!”

It has everything to do with censorship and complete control over people’s ability to communicate. Politicians hate free speech and they want to control their citizens completely including their thoughts. This is true evil.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#218

Post by 1718627440 »

KPGv2 wrote: post #171
quotemstr wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The accepted solution is to have a constitution that says otherwise. Constitutions don't enforce themselves. The US constitution has a crystal clear right to bear arms but multiple jurisdictions ignore it and multiple supreme court rulings and make firearm ownership functionally impossible anyway. Free speech regulations have, thankfully, been more robust. The only thing that stops bad things happening is a critica…

> The US constitution has a crystal clear right to bear arms It looks like it was drafted by an ESL speaker. It's by far the worst-drafted amendment, grammatically speaking: > A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. It's not even a valid English sentence, and it certainly never bothers to define "Arms." Not to me…

It also implies that the militia is regulated.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#219

Post by gjsman-1000 »

nikkwong wrote: post #213
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Best case scenario (and this is wildly optimistic) the offenders won't be able to find any 'safe' channels to distribute their materials to each other. The theory is based on the documented fact that most crime is poorly thought through with terrible operational security. 41% is straight up opportunistic, spur of the moment, zero planning. It won't stop technologically savvy predators who plan things carefully ; bu…

Exactly. Econ 101: why do consumption taxes work at all? By increasing the amount of pain associated with purchasing a particular indulgent product, you decrease the consumption of that product on the margin . When you increase the price of cigarettes by 20%, cigarette smoking in a society decreases. But for the most addicted, no consumption tax will probably act as a deterrent. Some individuals will find a way to di…

Exactly my point, but also, to add to it:

Let's say you're actually texting in a group. Even if you use perfect operational security, odds are terrible that all members of your group will perfectly uphold the same level of security every time they share their content.

One is going to slip up. He's going to get arrested. And he's going to turn the whole group in to reduce his sentence. Everyone else meanwhile has their operational security become proof of intent, proof of deliberation, proof of trying to evade authorities. They thought they were clever with the encrypted ZIP files, but the judge and jury are going to be merciless. I don't think most authorities have a problem with that.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#220

Post by topspin »

bikemike026 wrote: post #206

Are the Europeans insane? The modern world is becoming a horror. I think I would rather live in a dark forest. Life is becoming pointless.

> Are the Europeans insane?

I don't think so. If they were, it would actually be better: one can have sympathy for insanity, and at least isolate it, if not treat it.

Instead, it's extreme insecurity combined with limitless regard for infallible authority. The thought that the hoi polloi might write or say things that are beyond scrutiny is intolerable. That's the insecurity part. And all intolerable things must be criminalized, because in Europe, laws infallibly fix everything. That's the authority part.

That's not insanity. That's just how you behave when you imagine it is your mandate to perfect the world and indulge hubris sufficient to believe you have the wisdom to do so.

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