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They Thought They Were Free (1955)

press.uchicago.edu

211–220 of 545 posts

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On biological males in women's sports I think more people can agree on this. But you're handwaving away the fact that conservative political parties are using trans existence as a wedge issue.

They're using trans people's participation in sports (once uncontroversial) as a wedge to drive in the larger wedge of trans existence. They can do this because, intuitively, many people think there's an advantage to be had. If there were such advantages, then we'd have to consider the thorny topic of what constitutes an "unfair" advantage, and whether the social implications of excluding a marginalised population ou…

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Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#212
post #17
post #7

No, they noticed. 90 years ago, 2/3 of the world's books were in Germany. They were educated and literate and knew what they were doing and what was happening. Germans were acutely aware of the reality of the day to day situation and their previous history in WW1.

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> It is western propaganda. Germans were simply supportive of Hitler and, for the most part, Hitler did well by the Germans.

It's not like they had much of a choice after ~1933:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933

And Adam Tooze, who wrote an entire book examining Nazi economic policy, would disagree on the 'doing well by' part:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wages_of_Destruction

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#213

Everyone in this thread is reading this in relation to the current US government. But some other interesting parallels are the current Israeli government, and more speculatively, A(G)I.

IR is more complex. They know very well what it's leading to, since it's part of their founding history. Half the population do go out on streets to rotest, while the other half go out to protest the protests. So it is the opposite of the lack of awareness/too busy with life and changes etc the article talks about.

meanwhile, this is very pertinent to USA current climate. But interestingly, people will repost this, comment, vote, but nobody will ever think of discussing impeachment.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#214
post #170
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of different national and international situations that get compared to Nazi Germany seems to reflect a paucity of historical imagination and desire to collapse every conflict into an manichaean analogy with modern civilization's foundational battle of good vs. evil. It might make at least as much sense to compare to Erdoğan's Turkey, Orban's Hungary, Syria's Assad and al-Julani, Chile with Allende and Pin…

> Whereas the Nazi Germany analogy ends with near-inevitable wave function collapse into "start shooting Nazis" Does it? I haven’t thought about shooting anyone. I would like to see more widespread awareness, protesting, and a general strike.

Have you seen social media's reaction to that murderer Mangione?

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#215

> They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 by Milton Mayer, published by the University of Chicago Press. ©1955, 1966, 2017 by the University of Chicago. Such books will no longer be published if universities are not free. And if freedom begins to disappear, even those who believe themselves safely conformist are not safe... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came

Universities will not be safe from government meddling until they comprehensively stop taking money from the government first . Until such a point, they run the real risk of censorship and becoming the agents of the very thing that they are warning about.

Worth drawing a distinction between governmental support for science and for the humanities.

The first does a lot of relative low mark-up contract work requested by governmental agencies. Governments and all of us would like to see cancer and Alzheimer disease cured.

The request for “bids” (aka grant applications) from NIH, DoD (now DoW) and NSF is what has greatly expanded research-focused universities and msde the USA the greatest source if cutting-edge science since WW2 (now relative success is shifting rapidly to China).

The recipients of these small but numerous contract to big medical schools usually are totally agnostic about politics—at least at work.

Turns out even autocratic-leaning politicians and the public are almost universally interested in learning how to live a long healthy life.

In contrast, the humanities are not a bread winners for universities. These faculty are ultimately paid by tuition or red or blue state support. These much more socially saavy and interested faculty mainly teach, and if they are lucky, have some modest time to think, read, and write. They are not beholding to government funds. They can speak truth to power.

So if a university like Columbia is brought to heel by the administration it is mainly due to the addiction of university administrators for the relative modest overhead they receive for NIH compared to that any corporation would accept for the same work.

And the ultimate source and cause of that addiction of administrators now willing to bend the knee to retain their federal funding overheads is the hard and intense work of their research scientists.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#217
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Allies defeated Germany, not the British.

From June 4, 1940 to June 22, 1941 Britain faced Hitler alone.

I'm not saying they didn't. But Britain didn't defeat Germany alone, and certainly didn't get the entire share of control after Germany was defeated. And after that the further decline of the UK showed that the power was shifting into the hands of those with wealth anyway, and here we are.

Since around Nixon (maybe?) there has been a gradual post-WW2 deregulation that really accelerated under Reagan and now with Trump its accelerating again. More and more keeps shifting into the hands of unelected, wealthy individuals who see that their power keeps growing and growing and as far as I can tell, won't stop until they have it all. It doesn't make any sense to me why that looks like a stable world to them, but the one thing that is certain is that there is no 2nd amendment that will stop the billionaire club.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#218
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also remind the short of memory that during covid, the states with the most draconian restrictions were mostly left-leaning, and many were loathe to give up that control. Control of the people comes from all sides. The end result is the same, but the methods are different, intended to make people happy to be controlled.

That mostly mapped to population density, which maps to blue states because the main divide is urban vs rural. More intense pandemic measures make more sense where density is higher. But did we even have any true lockdowns in the US? Maybe in some cities, but we had nothing close to China or even Australia. Were there any places in the US with actual curfews where you were not allowed to leave, or anything like that?…

In Indiana, there were groceries that had early morning for healthcare workers and elderly only. That helped limit spread as well.

Again, we had no real lockdowns. School was remote, which had its own really bad effects on early socialization.

I'm not at all sure what we should have did differently. Technically a hard lockdown for 6 weeks could mostly eradicate it everywhere. But a lot of people can't handle that.

What I do now know is our society and public kinda sucks, people will show up and do stuff sick, spread sickness, and not really care much. And our government has been getting steadily worse and worse as long as Ive lived. And my generation and younger ones are either in for a terrible time, or already IN a terrible time.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#219
post #105

I’ve read the book. It’s genuinely interesting. It’s very interesting to see how people misremember the post-war years. It also contains a) passages that are very much quoted out of context and b) an awful lot of stuff about “national character” that is… questionable. I highly recommend actually reading it and understanding what it is and isn’t. Mostly I learned that there’s no simple answers, but also that people an…

> an awful lot of stuff about “national character” that is… questionable. Yes! I recently read this book and was pretty shocked by how much was chalked up to the German character. I came away feeling neither comfort nor increased panic relating to the current US situation. I read the book because I was hand-wringing about how complicit I am just by getting on with my privileged and comfortable life right now. I didn’…

Anecdotally, having lived in Germany for a couple of years recently, there is a perceptible national character. The best way to understand it is to ponder the difference between a drag race and a rally race - in one, success means going as fast as possible; in the other success means getting to navigation points within a window of error. Or, with beer: in America success is discovering a new beer with a different flavor profile. In Germany, success is figuring out a way to even more precisely and consistently conforming to a centuries-old brewing standard. This, along with a kind of blunt speech that presupposes the listener to have little in the way of vanity or ego (or challenges them to not express it), is the "German character" as far as I can tell.

I suspect in part this was because they were burned very, very badly by the outward striving into the unknown that Hitler represented, and still having creativity and effort to apply turned inward to asymptotically approach perfect execution of the known.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#220
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hitler didn’t do well by the people. Real wages declined throughout Nazi reign. Their lands were destroyed. They were responsible for allowing genocide. Source: Rise and Fall of the Third Reich The article shows how he lulled them step by step and diverted them from knowing this was worse than before. Sound familiar USA?

They just lost the war. Had they won the war(s), their fortunes would have been different. We can hate the guy but he was not going to conquer Europe with the Germans and then sit at it empty.

> They just lost the war. Had they won the war(s), their fortunes would have been different.

"Just". LOL. Is that all?

They lost the war in part because of bad economic policy:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wages_of_Destruction

The UK was out producing Germany in planes and many other sectors—and that was before the US even got involved.

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