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EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

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Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#211

Post by raxxorraxor »

singulasar wrote: post #117
outime wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Endeavour like these make people vote for extremists Maybe it's time to start considering the current individuals in power as extremists? Just because their speech is more 'peaceful' doesn't mean their actions aren't extremist in nature.

or maybe let's not? their actions are clearly not extremist, absolutely not perfect and not always equally democratic, but not extremist or violent like the actual extremists...

I do think the ambition to spy on all private communication to be quite extremist.

Especially Germany should know better. If you build two autocratic dictatorships on average per century, maybe start to take care that state powers are restricted.

The US is fully correct in its criticism of Germany regarding freedom of speech and house searches. Sure, on surveillance their arguments would be very weak...

Absolutely nothing positive will be gained by this surveillance, so there isn't even the smallest security benefit. On the contrary.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#212

Post by graemep »

munksbeer wrote: post #126
codeptualize wrote: post #26

One interesting line in the proposal: > Detection will not apply to accounts used by the State for national security purposes, maintaining law and order or military purposes; If it's all very safe and accurate, why is this exception necessary? Doesn't this say either that it's not secure, or that there is a likely hood that there will be false positives that will be reviewed? If they have it all figured out, this exc…

> It's ridiculous that they keep trying this absolutely ridiculous plan over and over again. There is a certain group of politicians who are pushing for this very hard. In this case, the main thrust seems to be coming from Denmark, but from what I understand there are groups (eg. europol) pushing this from behind the scenes. They need the politicians to get it done.

I think that one problem is that politicians defer too much to "experts" in decisions like this.

I cannot remember who it was, but one British prime minister, when told by intelligence services that they needed greater surveillance powers, told them essentially, that of course they would claim that, and firmly refused.

Politicians now mostly lack the backbone. That does not stop them ignoring expert advice when it is politically inconvenient, of course.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#213

Post by teeklp »

philipallstar wrote: post #145
impossiblefork wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The EU isn't a federation, there's no supremacy class. The member countries are sovereign and obviously can't go against their constitutions or basic laws.

> there's no supremacy class What does "supremacy class" mean?

I assume he means something like "supremacy clause."

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#214

Post by philwelch »

codeptualize wrote: post #26

One interesting line in the proposal: > Detection will not apply to accounts used by the State for national security purposes, maintaining law and order or military purposes; If it's all very safe and accurate, why is this exception necessary? Doesn't this say either that it's not secure, or that there is a likely hood that there will be false positives that will be reviewed? If they have it all figured out, this exc…

“False positives” is the most likely explanation. A common tactic for government agents is to pose as criminals and extremists, either to more effectively infiltrate existing criminal or extremist networks or to run sting/entrapment operations.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#215

Post by Gud »

singulasar wrote: post #117
outime wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Endeavour like these make people vote for extremists Maybe it's time to start considering the current individuals in power as extremists? Just because their speech is more 'peaceful' doesn't mean their actions aren't extremist in nature.

or maybe let's not? their actions are clearly not extremist, absolutely not perfect and not always equally democratic, but not extremist or violent like the actual extremists...

Define "extremist". Many people would argue mass immigration is an extremist position but was the normal accepted position for the people in power within the European Union but was never a popular position with the populations of Europe.

So these so called > represent the normal position.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#216

Post by jjani »

Yokolos wrote: post #3

I can't believe with our history involving the Third Reich and the Stasi that we aren't staunchly opposed. Especially with the impending political upheaval when AfD finally gets enough votes to form a ruling government. Our politicians are insanely shortsighted and somehow don't understand the danger they're enabling.

It's about as believable as a country with history involving the Third Reich and Stasi openly standing behind a country that the UN, and every relevant scholar on the subject, confirms is committing genocide.

In other words, it's very believable. It is incredible how billions of hours have been spent on Vergangenheitsbewältigung, and nothing has been learnt. Potentially the best phenomenon in existence at showing that humanity is, after all, so much less intelligent than it believes it is - that even after such a destructive event and so much performative effort at analysis and learning, the key takeaway did not become part of the social psyche whatsoever.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#217

Post by zosima »

Longhanks wrote: post #4

This chat control topic is undemocratic, allegedly illegal in many jurisdictions (such as Germany), yet, keeps coming up ever and ever again, and the politicians face no consequences whatsoever. Endeavour like these make people vote for extremists, distrust the EU and democracies, or just give up on politics for good. These EU politicians endangering freedom, justice and democracy must be held accountable, with the m…

Maybe those you call extremists are now the only sane people.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#218

Post by johnisgood »

ulrikrasmussen wrote: post #179
munksbeer wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's ridiculous that they keep trying this absolutely ridiculous plan over and over again. There is a certain group of politicians who are pushing for this very hard. In this case, the main thrust seems to be coming from Denmark, but from what I understand there are groups (eg. europol) pushing this from behind the scenes. They need the politicians to get it done.

Our current minister of justice in Denmark, Peter Hummelgaard, says "yes" to everything proposed by the police and intelligence agencies. Meanwhile, he has demonstrated no ability whatsoever of understanding the technical challenges of implementing something like this, and he firmly insists on the false claim that it is possible to let the police read encrypted communication without compromising the security model. H…

And I doubt you achieve it by taking away people's privacy. There are bigger issues that need to be addressed and have nothing to do with E2EE. If they cannot address that, then ...? They just do not seem to care about what they are claiming to care about.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#219

Post by delusional »

graemep wrote: post #93
cianmm wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s some data. Skepticism is pretty low and approval is pretty high https://www.statista.com/statistics/1360333/euroscepticism-e...

Do those numbers include the UK when it was in the EU? Obviously removing a large pool of sceptics would shift the numbers. The "positive" number has recovered from a low in the wake of the Eurozone crisis but is still fallen significantly from the pre-crisis level of around 50%. It would be interesting to see a breakdown by country - The EU's own report suggests very big variations between countries: https://op.euro…

The current "positive" number from spring 2025 is actually 52%, only 5 points down from the highest number in the past 20 years, and the second highest trust number in the same time period.

Sure, the eurozone debt crisis of the 2010s was rough for the trust mumbers, taking them down to 33% but they've fully recovered from that.

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