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The worst possible antitrust outcome

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Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#211
post #201
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because humans are shit at governing, the only viable way (until someone invents something new) is external control. No, that's even worse, because, as you admit, humans are shit at governing--and the "external control" is just more humans being shit at governing, but with a much bigger negative impact because the scope of their shitty governing covers many more people. Advocates of free markets, like me, don't adv…

My point was not that government is better or worse than corporate oligarchy in a question of governing. It's all the same people, same humans, just with different labels. My point was that free market is kinda like unstable isotope, it can't exist for any significant length of time and will decay into a government. As soon as some corporation starts dictating its rules to an unrelated people, we can call it a proto-…

> My point was that free market is kinda like unstable isotope, it can't exist for any significant length of time and will decay into a government.

If this is true, I think we're screwed.

I don't think it's actually true, but it is true that in our current world, the number of people who understand the downsides of government and are willing to truly support a free market is miniscule, not even rounding error in the overall numbers.

> Competition can't work in the free market.

You're forgetting that in a free market, all transactions are voluntary. And in a society where that had been true for a long time, and people upheld that principle and acted accordingly, institutions would evolve that are very different from our current ones. David Friedman's The Machinery of Freedom is a book length attempt to imagine what such a society would be like, in some detail. It would not be at all like what you would get if you took our current society and just eliminated the government. Of course that's a stupid idea, because our society has evolved for a long time under the assumption that it has a government, and its institutions have evolved accordingly.

> The instant external control ceases to exist, the most shrewd and smart players would start employing all kinds of currently illegal shit.

To paraphrase David Friedman in a similar context, unfortunately this sentence remains true if you take out the first seven words.

You're describing what happens now, in our current world, which has "external control" up the wazoo--just external control that does what the most shrewd and smart players want it to do. Google, Amazon, Walmart, etc. have all done "all kinds of currently illegal shit", and paid no real price for it. True, they've also made a lot of shit that should be illegal, technically legal, by buying the laws and regulations that favor them. But they've also broken the law, straight up, numerous times, and the government never makes them pay the proper price. They always get away with what for them amounts to a tiny slap on the wrist.

And the situation now is worse than it would be in a free market, because in a free market, at least no one would believe that there was some magical "external control" that would somehow protect them. They would know that it was up to them to simply refuse transactions whose long term cost outweighed whatever short term gain was being dangled in front of them. In our current world, people still believe, even with all the evidence to the contrary, that the government can somehow protect them from all the "currently illegal shit" that the big players get up to. And that "protection" simply isn't there. Government always ends up being just another tool that the big players use to get what they want at the expense of everybody else--and it's an easier tool to use than trying to do it in a true free market would be.

Again, it might be that humans are simply incapable of doing the things that a free market requires at scale. And if that's true, I think we're screwed. In any case, it's not a problem that is solved by having a government.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#212
post #211
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point was not that government is better or worse than corporate oligarchy in a question of governing. It's all the same people, same humans, just with different labels. My point was that free market is kinda like unstable isotope, it can't exist for any significant length of time and will decay into a government. As soon as some corporation starts dictating its rules to an unrelated people, we can call it a proto-…

> My point was that free market is kinda like unstable isotope, it can't exist for any significant length of time and will decay into a government. If this is true, I think we're screwed. I don't think it's actually true, but it is true that in our current world, the number of people who understand the downsides of government and are willing to truly support a free market is miniscule, not even rounding error in the…

I'm thinking that we both are fed up with the same bad things happening in society, just call it differently :) . I sincerely hope that one we may have a somewhat free self-governing society with a free market too. Just likely not in the near future, unfortunately.

Regarding the last paragraph, I have a tiny hope for humanity, but I suspect that big change may happen only after some major world scale crisis (if we survive it too). Rebulding governance slowly just doesn't work, governance degrades fasted than we can do anything about it.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The racist, segregation-forever southern Democrats, who as powerful committee chairs had blocked civil-rights legislation for decades — mostly died off or became Republicans in the 1970s and 1980s thanks to the GOP's "Southern Strategy." Why would racists mad about Democrats supporting the Civil Rights Act of 1964 respond by switching to the party that had pushed through every other Civil Rights Act before it? Of c…

> Why would racists mad about Democrats supporting the Civil Rights Act of 1964 respond by switching to the party that had pushed through every other Civil Rights Act before it? Of course, they didn't. Your revisionism is pretty glaring to anyone who was paying attention during the mid-1960s, as I was — my USAF dad was stationed in east Texas then, which was more deep South than Old West. Let's just say we have very…

Highly conscientious white people often can’t view these issues logically. They get hung up on moral outrage over racism, which has made them susceptible to the decades of emotional blackmail and misinformation peddled by the left.

Imagine a robot or alien who has no moral reaction either way to individual prejudice. Do you think they’d analyze the history and reach the same conclusion? I think the robot would realize that you’ve got a part of the country that was building its economy on deregulation and low taxes. And it was also the most religious part of the country, at a time when the defining issue globally was the atheist, communist soviet union. Of course that region shifted to the GOP.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would racists mad about Democrats supporting the Civil Rights Act of 1964 respond by switching to the party that had pushed through every other Civil Rights Act before it? Of course, they didn't. Your revisionism is pretty glaring to anyone who was paying attention during the mid-1960s, as I was — my USAF dad was stationed in east Texas then, which was more deep South than Old West. Let's just say we have very…

Highly conscientious white people often can’t view these issues logically. They get hung up on moral outrage over racism, which has made them susceptible to the decades of emotional blackmail and misinformation peddled by the left. Imagine a robot or alien who has no moral reaction either way to individual prejudice. Do you think they’d analyze the history and reach the same conclusion? I think the robot would realiz…

Certainly social- and economic considerations were factors in the southern white migration to the GOP. But it was no coincidence that Ronald Reagan gave a(n in)famous "states' rights" speech in Mississippi in his 1980 presidential campaign [0]. This followed Nixon's southern strategy [1].

Let's get back to the topic at hand [2], namely your assertion that it was Robert Bork's party — the GOP — that supposedly got the 1964 Civil Rights Act through Congress. Yes, liberal northern Republicans such as Sen. Everett Dirksen definitely contributed — as I said.

But you appear to be implicitly memory-holing the (northern) Democrats who drove the process from the White House and the majority in both the House and the Senate: President Lyndon Johnson; Sen. Hubert Humphrey; and Rep. Emanuel Celler. The Senate cloture vote to end the southerners' 60-day (!) filibuster was 27 Republicans and 44 Democrats.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States%27_rights_speech

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45132122

[3] https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/...

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#215
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i mean... if people don't get money they die so....

So if they want to live, they are compelled to do some sort of work somewhere at some point, which is the nature of the human condition (along with all other living beings). That doesn't mean you can force them to work for you specifically because you have the amount of money you deem sufficient for a specific task. It feels like a lot of people have forgotten that this is how nature works, not that all of your needs…

You’re incorrect that being compelled to do work in order to survive is the nature of the human condition and all other living beings.

There is nothing natural about being compelled to work to live It is an artificial and constructed state.

It’s why there are people who have NEVR had to work to live and never will have to.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#216
> And if you're waiting for Europe to jump in and act where America won't, don't hold your breath. EU Commission sources leaked to Reuters that the EU is going to drop its multi-billion euro fine against Google because they don't want to make Trump angry:

Well no. Europe just confirmed it yesterday.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#217
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if they want to live, they are compelled to do some sort of work somewhere at some point, which is the nature of the human condition (along with all other living beings). That doesn't mean you can force them to work for you specifically because you have the amount of money you deem sufficient for a specific task. It feels like a lot of people have forgotten that this is how nature works, not that all of your needs…

You’re incorrect that being compelled to do work in order to survive is the nature of the human condition and all other living beings. There is nothing natural about being compelled to work to live It is an artificial and constructed state. It’s why there are people who have NEVR had to work to live and never will have to.

No, I am not wrong. A person in isolation must work to survive. If they don't, they will die of starvation, thirst, or exposure.

I will never understand why people believe that should change when a person lives around others.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#218
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not money. The problem is not that Google, Amazon, etc. can buy special privileges from the government; the problem is that the government has them for sale. It's government power that's the root of the problem, not money. If the government didn't have the power to give out such special privileges (which comes from the power to issue regulations that all businesses must obey), it wouldn't matter how much money Go…

the alternative being that there is no entity able to regulate, a direct path to a living hell.

> the alternative being that there is no entity able to regulate

No, the alternative is for people to realize that "regulation" provided by government doesn't work--that the only way to effectively regulate a market is for the market participants to do it by the transactions they choose to make and the transactions they choose to refuse. As long as people won't do that--as long as, for example, people continue to believe the fantasy that a valuable service like web search can be provided by Google for free with no downsides, or that everything can be magically cheaper on Amazon without them bullying their supply chain in all kinds of underhanded ways and treating their employees like shit--we're doomed. Government regulation can't save people from themselves. These big companies can only get away with what they do because we keep feeding the monsters.

Re: The worst possible antitrust outcome

#219
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a point, actually. The only people who haven't thought this through are libertarians. The government does lots of things well. That's why those in power are trying to destroy it right now. Here's where you go "But it's not perfect, therefore it can't work." or maybe "all taxation is theft".

Keep deflecting. It's clear you have very little historical or economic knowledge about taxation, and it seems like the sum total of your thoughts on the matter is: taking money from people I don't like makes me feel good.

What I really want to do, specifically, is take your money and give it away. Hope that helps.
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