Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I used to know how to write in Japanese

aethermug.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 277 posts

Re: I used to know how to write in Japanese

#211

Post by anigbrowl »

jeroenhd wrote: post #76
astrobe_ wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't possibly count the third time as a real attempt. A language reform initiated by a foreigner and recent enemy at war, who burned your cities and even nuked two of them? If someone knows about successful examples, I'd be curious to hear about them.

I don't think it's that crazy for the language reform to make it through, seeing as the entire political system has been reshaped into a pseudo-American democratic structure for instance. With the emperor going out of fashion and the governance of the country being overthrown, I think it would be the perfect moment for other cultural shifts as well. Had the timing coincided with the introduction of computers (which f…

Japan had a parliament since the Meiji era (first elected in 1890). The Macarthur occupation changed quite a few things, but less than most people think.

Re: I used to know how to write in Japanese

#212

Post by nojs »

bananalychee wrote: post #168
nojs wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To people who think this is surprising, it’s not that different to forgetting how to spell rare English words

Not really. Even in English there are only a few possible ways to spell out a given sound. With Chinese characters that mostly goes out the window, making speaking and writing more or less orthogonal skills. Not entirely since there are classes of characters that are related by sound, but to a much greater extent than alphabetic languages. Personally if I forget a spelling in English or a related language I realize t…

> it's common for people to simply not have a clue how to even write the first stroke of a word they've heard and read before.

It’s much more common to remember most of the character, or accidentally substitute it for a similar character that sounds the same.

Re: I used to know how to write in Japanese

#213

Post by Izkata »

themafia wrote: post #194
joshdavham wrote: post #160

This article actually hits on a pet peeve of mine where I feel people sorta “mystify” kanji/hanzi unnecessarily. The truth is that there’s actually nothing particularly weird about being able to read some kanji but not be able to write them… You actually get close to my point here: > Admittedly, I've never heard of someone forgetting how to write a letter from the Latin alphabet. Yes! But have you ever heard of someo…

> Admittedly, I've never heard of someone forgetting how to write a letter from the Latin alphabet. Printing? No. Cursive? Yes.

The reverse almost happened to me before, I write almost exclusively in cursive and once or twice had to stop and think about what a capital Q was supposed to look like.

Re: I used to know how to write in Japanese

#214

Post by joshdavham »

themafia wrote: post #194
joshdavham wrote: post #160

This article actually hits on a pet peeve of mine where I feel people sorta “mystify” kanji/hanzi unnecessarily. The truth is that there’s actually nothing particularly weird about being able to read some kanji but not be able to write them… You actually get close to my point here: > Admittedly, I've never heard of someone forgetting how to write a letter from the Latin alphabet. Yes! But have you ever heard of someo…

> Admittedly, I've never heard of someone forgetting how to write a letter from the Latin alphabet. Printing? No. Cursive? Yes.

This is probably a better argument than my original comment (and much simpler!)

I actually can't write cursive at all, but I can usually read it fine. This is because I went to school when they stopped teaching cursive.

But alas, an article entitled "I used to know how to write in cursive" probably won't be very interesting to HN readers...

Re: I used to know how to write in Japanese

#215

Post by latentsea »

numpad0 wrote: post #139
latentsea wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guess Japanese people just can't talk to one another without subtitles.

Or there could be cues not captured well in the script. I don't know. But the rightmost column is real. 1: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%81%93%E3%81%86%E3%81%97%E...

I've spoken Japanese for the last 15 years. I'm aware of how many homophones there are. I still think by and large it wouldn't be a problem, and that natives would adapt to route around it. It's not a blocker.

Re: I used to know how to write in Japanese

#216

Post by coffeeling »

teleforce wrote: post #183
jaylaal wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice comparison. When I was living in China, I'd encounter someone who forgot how to write the characters for a word on a weekly basis. I think the difference is that with Latin alphabets you can still misspell something, and having gotten it down on paper, still rely on phonetics to convey your meaning.

Alphabet is such an underrated invention. It's probably higher in significance compared to the invention of wheel. It's the original "bicycle of the mind". For example, Korea pivoting from Chinese characters to its own alphabet or Hangul is very well documented including the positive effects it has in the much improved Korean literacy and civilization after the conversion. Fun facts anyone can learn Hangul alphabet i…

Scripts being the main driver of literacy is a pet peeve of mine. It's not the script, it's the schooling system. The high rates of literacy in modern states are just a result of the school system - Japan has a high literacy rate, for example, and their writing system is either the worst in the world or close to it.

That said, the characters are a whole boatload of unnecessary extra effort, and as a student of the two languages, the artificial illiteracy created by kanji, where I often just can't read words I've known for years, is simply maddening. Not having to wrestle with characters does free up a lot of time for both native and foreign students alike.

Re: I used to know how to write in Japanese

#217

Post by rahimnathwani »

teleforce wrote: post #183
jaylaal wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice comparison. When I was living in China, I'd encounter someone who forgot how to write the characters for a word on a weekly basis. I think the difference is that with Latin alphabets you can still misspell something, and having gotten it down on paper, still rely on phonetics to convey your meaning.

Alphabet is such an underrated invention. It's probably higher in significance compared to the invention of wheel. It's the original "bicycle of the mind". For example, Korea pivoting from Chinese characters to its own alphabet or Hangul is very well documented including the positive effects it has in the much improved Korean literacy and civilization after the conversion. Fun facts anyone can learn Hangul alphabet i…

  If your mother tongue is Korean (e.g Korean American) that only just started learning, it only take one day turnover from illiterate to literate.
Heritage speakers (of any language, not just Korean) often have limited vocabulary and limited exposure to complex grammar. Being able to sound out words wouldn't be enough to allow a heritage speaker able to fluently read a newspaper.

How many Korean-Americans know the Korean words for things like 'legislature', 'inflation', or 'geopolitical tensions'?

Re: I used to know how to write in Japanese

#219

Post by qingcharles »

jansan wrote: post #82
BrenBarn wrote: post #71

I mean, this is not a politically correct statement, but I think one line of reasoning from this is to say that Chinese characters (which is what kanji are) are not a great way to write down language for practical purposes. A friend of mine in grad school irreverently referred to the Chinese writing system as "a really huge, really inefficient syllabary", and I think there's some truth to that. The characters no doub…

Overall you are probably correct, but there are certain benefits from the Chinese character system. Long time ago I studied Japanese in Japan. On the way back to my home country I was sitting next to a bunch of Chinese people on the plane who did not speak any English or Japanese, but we were able to have a small conversation using Kanji/Chinese characters, because the characters' meanings are usually the same, altho…

I know almost nothing of Chinese languages, but some Japanese, and when I see boxes and instructions for some random item from Temu that is all in Chinese I'm amused by being able to understand bits of it.

I saw a face mask box that was all in Chinese and had 非医 on it (which means non-medical) which, depending on your font would be written exactly the same in Japanese: 非医.

Re: I used to know how to write in Japanese

#220

Post by thaumasiotes »

nneonneo wrote: post #35

This is very common in Chinese now. The older generation, many of whom didn’t learn pinyin, just use voice input to send messages; the younger generations just use pinyin input and similarly can’t handwrite beyond the simplest characters. The phenomenon of forgetting how to write is called 提笔忘字 (tíbǐwàngzì - to pick up the pen and forget the character). It was previously covered here on HN: https://news.ycombinator.c…

> the younger generations just use pinyin input and similarly can’t handwrite beyond the simplest characters

In my experience people often use input methods that aren't pinyin. I tend not to be able to type on other people's phones.

Post reply on HN