Something weird happens whenever someone tries to disrupt the Visa/Mastercard mob. Even in this post, the founders alluded to being "not well connected enough". Also look at how Plaid's acquisition by Visa was cancelled by the DOJ on antitrust claims but then Plaid dropped its plans to build a pay-by-bank network. Makes no sense when compared to the lawsuits filed and dismissed in 2024 and recently July 2025 claiming that Apple tried to build a payment network but were stopped by Visa/Mastercard.
Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks
211–220 of 278 posts
Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the US, not since 2011 since the Dodd Frank act required payment card networks to allow merchants to offer cash and debit card discounts. https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/new-rules-el...
There's no longer a blanket ban, but there are still obstacles: * Mastercard and Visa don't allow debit card surcharges, even if the transaction is run as "credit". * American Express only allows surcharges if they also apply to all other forms of card payment. This includes debit cards, which interacts problematically with the previous rule; if you want to do a card surcharge while accepting all three card brands an…
A cash and debit card discount is the same as a credit card surcharge, I fail to see how this qualifies as “significantly harder”.
Target, one of the largest retailers, offers a 5% discount for debit. Comcast, Tmobile, Verizon, ATT, Lumen, utilities, governments, and insurance companies also routinely charge extra for credit cards (or discounts for debit/cash).
Daycares charge more for credit card, as do doctors’ offices.
At least half the gas stations I see have long had higher credit cards prices.
Not to mention contractors for physical labor.
The change since 15 years ago is stark. If I wasn’t getting a minimum of 3.5% cash back on my purchases, I would use credit cards a lot less.
Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks
#213Zenophobia
Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
QR codes feel like such a step backwards compared to NFC. The UX with current mobile OSes is not good. And if you require an app, or even worse an active data connection, well, I much prefer a quick double-click of my phone’s side button and then putting it near the payment terminal. And I’m really skeptical about security. NFC is vulnerable to relay attacks and QR codes can be secured by using one-time codes or roll…
Yeah, as someone who just took a trip in China where QR payments are the most popular form it was clearly inferior from a UX standpoint from NFC. The most notable was a data connection. Cell service was pretty good overall but there were a few cases where we were struggling to get the payment through. Some merchants also have the ability to scan your code (which seems to be generated offline) but that leads to this c…
The experience in China is weird. My first reaction was, wow, this is so futuristic, everybody takes payment by code. Then after a while I’m thinking, hold on, this kind of sucks.
China’s implementation could be done a lot better. There’s no fundamental need for multiple incompatible systems like they have. But even improved, it wouldn’t be as good as NFC.
Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
QR codes feel like such a step backwards compared to NFC. The UX with current mobile OSes is not good. And if you require an app, or even worse an active data connection, well, I much prefer a quick double-click of my phone’s side button and then putting it near the payment terminal. And I’m really skeptical about security. NFC is vulnerable to relay attacks and QR codes can be secured by using one-time codes or roll…
I couldn't get a wallet app to work with GrapheneOS, so for me, QR codes are better, but they feel like they have different use cases. I like QR codes in mail invoices (very common in CH), I'd like NFC in a shop if I could use it.
You can also use NFC to just get a link, which is what you're doing with QR anyway.
Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks
#216Something weird happens whenever someone tries to disrupt the Visa/Mastercard mob. Even in this post, the founders alluded to being "not well connected enough". Also look at how Plaid's acquisition by Visa was cancelled by the DOJ on antitrust claims but then Plaid dropped its plans to build a pay-by-bank network. Makes no sense when compared to the lawsuits filed and dismissed in 2024 and recently July 2025 claiming…
I appreciate you looking out for my well being, but really there was nothing shady here. We weren’t forced out by a Visa mob or something like that. I actually wish that were the case, because that would mean that we were growing! We just aren’t well connected enough to convince established merchants to switch over to a startup’s payment network, especially since the value to them is dubious.
But it’s not like there was some shadowy Visa conspiracy. We received pre seed investment from institutional investors and built a pay-by-bank network entirely fine without anybody stopping us
Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks
#217When you start at the wrong premise, you typically end up in the wrong place. The premise is that credit cards (visa / Mastercard) is broken. When actually it works really well. For starters it works everywhere. Online. IRL. In my home country, in foreign lands. Secondly it costs the consumer nothing. The cost goes to the merchant. If anything the customer gets rewards. Merchants might pay 3%, (and ultimately yes, th…
Yep you get it Bruce. Unfortunately I confused being a villain (everybody likes to bash visa) with being bad at their jobs and disrupt-able.
Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks
#218Something weird happens whenever someone tries to disrupt the Visa/Mastercard mob. Even in this post, the founders alluded to being "not well connected enough". Also look at how Plaid's acquisition by Visa was cancelled by the DOJ on antitrust claims but then Plaid dropped its plans to build a pay-by-bank network. Makes no sense when compared to the lawsuits filed and dismissed in 2024 and recently July 2025 claiming…
I appreciate you looking out for my well being, but really there was nothing shady here. We weren’t forced out by a Visa mob or something like that. I actually wish that were the case, because that would mean that we were growing! We just aren’t well connected enough to convince established merchants to switch over to a startup’s payment network, especially since the value to them is dubious. But it’s not like there…
> We just aren’t well connected enough to convince established merchants to switch over to a startup’s payment network, especially since the value to them is dubious.
So instead of competing on merit by improving the value offered to merchants, your concern is to become connected enough to have the merchants switch to you in spite of "dubious value"??
Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks
#219This is what product market fit looks like; everyone is trashing various pieces of Zenobia, but it's still getting upvoted because we all want the solution.
Apparently not everyone: https://www.reddit.com/r/CreditCards/comments/1hxiusj/europe...
Credit card rewards programs are "eh", but for me I'd be worried about being forced into a low-trust system like Europe has. In the states, I don't have to worry, at all, about someone using my credit card for nefarious purposes. Getting any such fraudulent activity purged from my card is as easy as flagging it in my banking app.
This leads to a number of positive outcomes, such as not worrying at all about sketchy or online purchases, and "American style" payment at restaurants (where we just toss our card on the receipt, and eventually it gets picked up, processed, and returned without further interruption).
Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
I appreciate you looking out for my well being, but really there was nothing shady here. We weren’t forced out by a Visa mob or something like that. I actually wish that were the case, because that would mean that we were growing! We just aren’t well connected enough to convince established merchants to switch over to a startup’s payment network, especially since the value to them is dubious. But it’s not like there…
> We just aren’t well connected enough to convince established merchants to switch over to a startup’s payment network, especially since the value to them is dubious. So instead of competing on merit by improving the value offered to merchants, your concern is to become connected enough to have the merchants switch to you in spite of "dubious value"??
If you read the article they do give merchants more value in the form of 2% lower fees. It's just that that's not enough.