Why are there so many rationalist cults? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#211

Post by lordnacho » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 5:43 PM UTC

JohnMakin wrote: post #85

One of a few issues I have with groups like these, is that they often confidently and aggressively spew a set of beliefs that on their face logically follow from one another, until you realize they are built on a set of axioms that are either entirely untested or outright nonsense. This is common everywhere, but I feel especially pronounced in communities like this. It also involves quite a bit of navel gazing that m…

> I immediately become suspicious of anyone who is very certain of something

Me too, in almost every area of life. There's a reason it's called a conman: they are tricking your natural sense that confidence is connected to correctness.

But also, even when it isn't about conning you, how do people become certain of something? They ignored the evidence against whatever they are certain of.

People who actually know what they're talking about will always restrict the context and hedge their bets. Their explanation are tentative, filled with ifs and buts. They rarely say anything sweeping.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#212

Post by scythe » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 5:43 PM UTC

One of the hallmarks of cults — if not a necessary element — is that they tend to separate their members from the outside society. Rationalism doesn't directly encourage this, but it does facilitate it in a couple of ways:

- Idiosyncratic language used to describe ordinary things ("lightcone" instead of "future", "prior" instead of "belief" or "prejudice", etc)

- Disdain for competing belief systems

- Insistence on a certain shared interpretation of things most people don't care about (the "many-worlds interpretation" of quantum uncertainty, self-improving artificial intelligence, veganism, etc)

- I'm pretty sure polyamory makes the list somehow, just because it isn't how the vast majority of people want to date. In principle it's a private lifestyle choice, but it's obviously a community value here.

So this creates an opportunity for cult-like dynamics to occur where people adjust themselves according to their interactions within the community but not interactions outside the community. And this could seem — to the members — like the beliefs themselves are the problem, but from a sociological perspective, it might really be the inflexible way they diverge from mainstream society.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#213

Post by lazide » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 5:45 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #202

ctoth wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I immediately become suspicious of anyone who is very certain of something, especially if they derived it on their own. Are you certain about this?

Your own state of mind is one of the easiest things to be fairly certain about.

said no one familiar with their own mind, ever!

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#214

Post by bitwize » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 5:49 PM UTC

zzzeek wrote: post #186

reactordev wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mage yea, but the cult? Where do you roll for crazy? Is it a save against perception? Constitution? Or intelligence check? I know the church of Scientology wants you to crit that roll of tithing.

yeah, people should understand, what is Scientology based on? The E-Meter which is some kind of cheap shit radio shack lie detector thing. I'm quite sure LLMs would do very well if given the task to spit out new cult doctrines and I would gather we are less than years away from cults based on LLM generated content (if not already).

Terry Davis, a cult of one, believed God spoke to him through his computer's RNG. So... yeah.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#215

Post by 6177c40f » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 5:49 PM UTC

meroes wrote: post #47

It grew out of many different threads: different websites, communities, etc all around the same time. I noticed it contemporaneously in the philosophy world where Nick Bostrom’s Simulation argument was boosted more than it deserved (like everyone was just accepting it at the lay-level). Looking back I see it also developed from less wrong and other sites, but I was wondering what was going on with simulations taking…

To be clear, this article isn't calling rationalism a cult, it's about cults that have some sort of association with rationalism (social connection and/or ideology derived from rationalist concepts), e.g. the Zizians.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#216

Post by lazide » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 5:50 PM UTC

csours wrote: post #193

bobson381 wrote: post #8

I keep thinking about the first Avengers movie, when Loki is standing above everyone going "See, is this not your natural state?". There's some perverse security in not getting a choice, and these rationalist frameworks, based in logic, can lead in all kinds of crazy arbitrary directions - powered by nothing more than a refusal to suffer any kind of ambiguity.

Humans are not chickens, but we sure do seem to love having a pecking order.

Making good decisions is hard, and being accountable to the results of them is not fun. Easier to outsource if you can.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#217

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 5:50 PM UTC

FuriouslyAdrift wrote: post #52

api wrote: post #2

Why are there so many cults? People want to feel like they belong to something, and in a world in the midst of a loneliness and isolation epidemic the market conditions are ideal for cults.

Because we are currently living in an age of narcissism and tribalism / Identitarianism is the societal version of narcissism.

[deleted]

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#218

Post by khazhoux » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 5:50 PM UTC

FuriouslyAdrift wrote: post #52

api wrote: post #2

Why are there so many cults? People want to feel like they belong to something, and in a world in the midst of a loneliness and isolation epidemic the market conditions are ideal for cults.

Because we are currently living in an age of narcissism and tribalism / Identitarianism is the societal version of narcissism.

> Because we are currently living in an age of narcissism and tribalism

I've been saying this since at least 1200 BC!

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#219

Post by kazinator » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 5:51 PM UTC

The only way you can hope to get a gathering of nothing but paragons of critical thinking and skepticism is if the gathering has an entrance exam in critical thinking and skepticism (and a pretty tough one, if they are to be paragons). Or else, it's invitation-only.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#220

Post by digbybk » Tue, Aug 12, 2025, 5:52 PM UTC

ivm wrote: post #204

digbybk wrote: post #139

When I was looking for a group in my area to meditate with, it was tough finding one that didn't appear to be a cult. And yet I think Buddhist meditation is the best tool for personal growth humanity has ever devised. Maybe the proliferation of cults is a sign that Yudkowsky was on to something.

None of them are practicing Buddhist meditation though, same for the "personal growth" oriented meditation styles. Buddhist meditation exists only in the context of the Four Noble Truths and the rest of the Buddha's Dhamma. Throwing them away means it stops being Buddhist.

I disagree, but we'd be arguing semantics. In any case, the point still stands: you can just as easily argue that these rationalist offshoots aren't really Rationalist.