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How I code with AI on a budget/free

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Re: How I code with AI on a budget/free

#211

Post by grumbelbart2 »

d1sxeyes wrote: post #60
lern_too_spel wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're thinking of Facebook. A lot of companies run on Gmail and Google Docs (easy to verify with `dig MX [bigco].com`), and they would not if Google shared that data with anybody.

It’s not really in either Meta or Google’s interests to share that data. What they do is to build super detailed profiles of you and what you’re likely to click on, so they can charge more money for ad impressions.

LLMs add a new thread model. If trained on your data, they might very well leak some of its information in some future chat.

Meta, Alphabet might not want that, but it is impossible to completely avoid with current architectures.

Re: How I code with AI on a budget/free

#212

Post by johnnyanmac »

motoxpro wrote: post #174
1dom wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So yes, it is free. This sounds pedantic, but I think it's important to spell this out: this sort of stuff is only free if you consider what you're producing/exchanging for it to have 0 value. If you consider what you're producing as valuable, you're giving it away to companies with an incentive to extract as much value from your thing as possible, with little regard towards your preferences. If an idiot is convinc…

I don't think that's true. It's not that has zero value, it's that it has zero monetizable value. Hackernews is free. The posts are valuable to me and I guess my posts are valuable to me, but I wouldn't pay for it and I definitely don't expect to get paid. For YC, you are producing content that is "valuable" that brings people to their site, which they monetize through people signing up for their program. They do thi…

>Hackernews is free. The posts are valuable to me and I guess my posts are valuable to me, but I wouldn't pay for it and I definitely don't expect to get paid.

at this point, we may need future forums to be premium so we can avoid the deluge of AI bots plauging the internet. a small, one time cost is a guaranteed way to make such strategies untenable. SomethingAwful had a point decades ago.

But like any other business, you need to follow the money and understand the incentives. Hackernews has ads, but ads for companies with us as the audience. It's also indirectly an ad for YCombinator itself as bringing awareness of the accelerator (note what "hackernews.com" redirects to).

I'm fine with a company advertising itself; if I wasn't the idea of a company ceases to really function. And in this structure for companies, I can also get benefits by potentially getting jobs from here. So I don't mind that either. Everything aligns. I agree and support the structure. I can't say that about many other "free" websites.

As for me. I do want to monetize my data one day. I can't stop the scraping the entire internet over (that's for the courts), but I sure as heck won't hand it to them on a silver platter.

Re: How I code with AI on a budget/free

#213

Post by twelve40 »

freeopinion wrote: post #195
bahmboo wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to downvote you but you are adding to the discussion. In this context this is free from having to spend money. Many of us don't have the option to pay for models. We have to find some way to get the state of the art without spending our food money.

There is a company that is advertising like crazy for programmers, data scientists, etc. They are looking for college kids, etc. They are paying better than McDonalds. What are they building? A training corpus. Are people who responds to their ads getting the money for free? Handing your codebase to an AI company is not nothing.

> Handing your codebase to an AI company is not nothing.

it's a battle that's already lost a long time ago. Every crappy little service by now indexes everything. If you ever touch Github, Jira, Datadog, Glean (god forbid), Upwork, etc etc they each have their own shitty little "AI" thing which means what? Your project has been indexed, bagged and tagged. So unless you code from a cave without using any saas tools, you will be indexed no matter what.

Re: How I code with AI on a budget/free

#214

Post by motoxpro »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #212
motoxpro wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's true. It's not that has zero value, it's that it has zero monetizable value. Hackernews is free. The posts are valuable to me and I guess my posts are valuable to me, but I wouldn't pay for it and I definitely don't expect to get paid. For YC, you are producing content that is "valuable" that brings people to their site, which they monetize through people signing up for their program. They do thi…

>Hackernews is free. The posts are valuable to me and I guess my posts are valuable to me, but I wouldn't pay for it and I definitely don't expect to get paid. at this point, we may need future forums to be premium so we can avoid the deluge of AI bots plauging the internet. a small, one time cost is a guaranteed way to make such strategies untenable. SomethingAwful had a point decades ago. But like any other busines…

Definitely to each their own. I will never have a job at a YC company and I will also never apply to YC, so the ads are completely useless. I did discover some of my favorite shoes from an IG ad, though.

It wouldn't ever be worth me getting $.0001431 dollars for my data and individual data will always be worthless on it's own because 1. taking away one individuals data from a model does not make the model worse. 2. the price of an individuals data will always be zero because you have people like me who are willing to give it away for free in exchange for a free service (aka hackernews or IG)

One user's LTV on IG may be $34, but one user's data is worth $0. Which I think a lot of people struggle with.

From a more moral standpoint, the best part about the advertising business model is that it makes the internet open to everyone, not just those who can pay for every site they use.

Re: How I code with AI on a budget/free

#215

Post by johnnienaked »

simonw wrote: post #152
ta1243 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't trust any AI company not to use and monetise my data, regardless how much I pay or regardless what their terms of service say. I know full well that large companies ignore laws with impunity and no accountability.

I would encourage you to rethink this position just a little bit. Going through life not trusting any company isn't a fun way to live. If it helps, think about those company's own selfish motivations. They like money, so they like paying customers. If they promise those paying customers (in legally binding agreements, no less) that they won't train on their data... and are then found to have trained on their data any…

This is so naive

Re: How I code with AI on a budget/free

#216

Post by johnnyanmac »

motoxpro wrote: post #214
johnnyanmac wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Hackernews is free. The posts are valuable to me and I guess my posts are valuable to me, but I wouldn't pay for it and I definitely don't expect to get paid. at this point, we may need future forums to be premium so we can avoid the deluge of AI bots plauging the internet. a small, one time cost is a guaranteed way to make such strategies untenable. SomethingAwful had a point decades ago. But like any other busines…

Definitely to each their own. I will never have a job at a YC company and I will also never apply to YC, so the ads are completely useless. I did discover some of my favorite shoes from an IG ad, though. It wouldn't ever be worth me getting $.0001431 dollars for my data and individual data will always be worthless on it's own because 1. taking away one individuals data from a model does not make the model worse. 2. t…

I'm not sure if I'd ever have a job at YC (my industry isn't very "investor friendly"). But I like the idea of having a bunch of opportunities with such companies. It also encourages an environment of people I want to be around as well. So that indirectly serves my interests.

I will even use an ad example with conventions and festivals. You can argue an event like Comic-con is simply a huge ad. And it is. But I'm there "for the ad" in that case. It gathers other people "for the ad". It collectively benefits all of us to gather and socialize among one another.

Ads aren't bad, but many ads primarily exist to distract, not to facilitate an experience. And as a hot take, maybe we do need to gatekeep a bit more in this day and age. I don't want a "free intent" if it means 99% of my interactions are with bots instead of humans. If it means that corporations determine what is "worthy" of seeing instead of peers. If credit cards get to determine what I can spend my money on instead of my own personal (and legal) taste.

>It wouldn't ever be worth me getting $.0001431 dollars for my data and individual data will always be worthless on it's own

On top of being a software engineers who's contributed to millions on value with my data, I also strive to be an artist. An industry that has spent decades being extracted from but not as fortunate to be compensated a living wage most often. People can argue that "art is worthless" , yet it also props up multiple billion dollar industries on top of societal cultured. An artisan these days can even sustain themselves as a individual, with much faster turnaround than trying to program a website or app.

By all metrics, its hard to argue this sector's value is zero. Maybe having that lens only strengthened my stance, as a precursor to what software can become if you don't push against abuse early on.

Re: How I code with AI on a budget/free

#217

Post by teiferer »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #206
simonw wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Landing in court is an expensive thing that companies don't want to happen. Your examples also differ from what I'm talking about. Advertising supported business models have a different relationship with end users. People getting something for free are less likely to switch providers over a privacy concern compared with companies is paying thousands of dollars a month (or more) for a paid service under the understand…

>Landing in court is an expensive thing that companies don't want to happen. "If the penalty is a fine, it's legal for the rich". These businesses also don't want to pay taxes or even workers, but in the end they will take the path of least resistence. if they determine fighting in court for 10 years is more profitable than following regulations, then they'll do it. Until we start jailing CEO's (a priceless action),…

> Until we start jailing CEO's (a priceless action)

In the context of the original thread here: If all you need to do is go to jail then whatever that's for was "for free"!

Re: How I code with AI on a budget/free

#218

Post by chrismustcode »

indigodaddy wrote: post #173
faangguyindia wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Qwen cli uses whole file edit format which is slow and burns credits fast same is issue with gemini cli.

Do opencode/crush also have this problem?

I use opencode and never experienced it going through tokens at the speed I experienced Gemini CLI go through.

Cant speak to qwen or crush as I have not used them

Re: How I code with AI on a budget/free

#219

Post by pwndByDeath »

twelve40 wrote: post #213
freeopinion wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a company that is advertising like crazy for programmers, data scientists, etc. They are looking for college kids, etc. They are paying better than McDonalds. What are they building? A training corpus. Are people who responds to their ads getting the money for free? Handing your codebase to an AI company is not nothing.

> Handing your codebase to an AI company is not nothing. it's a battle that's already lost a long time ago. Every crappy little service by now indexes everything. If you ever touch Github, Jira, Datadog, Glean (god forbid), Upwork, etc etc they each have their own shitty little "AI" thing which means what? Your project has been indexed, bagged and tagged. So unless you code from a cave without using any saas tools, y…

I feel like this was understood. SaaS has your data, and the pan is very hot. Two lessons that learn quickly with experience.

Re: How I code with AI on a budget/free

#220

Post by ta1243 »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #206
simonw wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Landing in court is an expensive thing that companies don't want to happen. Your examples also differ from what I'm talking about. Advertising supported business models have a different relationship with end users. People getting something for free are less likely to switch providers over a privacy concern compared with companies is paying thousands of dollars a month (or more) for a paid service under the understand…

>Landing in court is an expensive thing that companies don't want to happen. "If the penalty is a fine, it's legal for the rich". These businesses also don't want to pay taxes or even workers, but in the end they will take the path of least resistence. if they determine fighting in court for 10 years is more profitable than following regulations, then they'll do it. Until we start jailing CEO's (a priceless action),…

CEO says the action was against policy and they didn't know, so the blame passes down until you get to a scapegoat that can't defend themselves.

The underlying problem is that we have companies with more power than sovereign states, before you even include the power over the state the companies have.

At some point in the next few decades of continued transfer of wealth from workers to owners more and more workers will snap and bypass the courts. The is what happened with the original fall of feudalism and warlords. This wasn't guaranteed though -- if the company owners keep themselves and their allies rich enough they will be untouchable, same as drug lords.

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