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New executive order puts all grants under political control

arstechnica.com

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Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#211

Post by lossolo »

astrange wrote: post #210
lossolo wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are mistaken. If the US decided to give up its role, there would be a void, a void that anyone who filled it would gain soft power from. China would be very interested in taking the place of the US in securing global trade routes, because doing so would not only provide soft power but also signal that China had replaced the US as the world’s hegemon.

China (at least its current incarnation with Xi) doesn't care about soft power and thinks the only reason anyone else tries it is they're overly sentimental losers. That's why they have that wolf warrior diplomacy program where they just had diplomats insult everyone. We already have piracy coming back with the Houthis; China didn't join the alliance with other countries, defended their own ships and ignored everyone…

> China (at least its current incarnation with Xi) doesn't care about soft power

That’s just wrong. Xi has explicitly ordered cadres to "tell China’s story well"[1] and build "discourse power" that’s textbook soft-power ambition. Surveys show it’s working, China jumped to #3 in 2024 and #2 in 2025 on brand finance’s global soft power index.

1. https://www.iseas.edu.sg/articles-commentaries/iseas-perspec...

> We already have piracy coming back with the Houthis; China didn't join the alliance with other countries, defended their own ships and ignored everyone else.

This is NOT piracy. Under UNCLOS Art. 101, piracy requires acts "for private ends" on the high seas. The Houthi campaign is openly political/armed-conflict behavior, so it doesn’t meet the piracy definition (even though it looks like it to laypeople).

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#212

Post by ethbr1 »

hn_acker wrote: post #206
ethbr1 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's vogue to construct a view in which depression and inaction are the only logical conclusions, but that ain't our reality. > The administration is already ignoring the law with impunity Can you provide an example where they've ignored a Supreme Court ruling? And the histrionics around this are uniquely relative to modern norms. Look up the shenanigans around Marbury v Madison https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki…

> Can you provide an example where they've ignored a Supreme Court ruling? How about the case where the Supreme Court told the administration to obey a lower court's order and facilitate Kilmar Abrego Garcia's return to the US [1]? The Trump administration openly defied the Supreme Court's order for nearly 2 months (April 11 to June 6) [2][3]. Setting aside whether the "temporary" violation of a Supreme Court order h…

"Facilitate" was a weasel word that the Supreme Court knew would allow the administration to play as it wished, hence why it was affirmed by this Court.

If the Supreme Court had wanted to order him back immediately, it would have done so.

The facts are that this administration has skated on and just over the line with regards to lower courts, especially in matters of immigration, but has yet to ignore a directive from the Supreme Court.

If you're aware of an actual example, feel free to provide it.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#213

Post by ethbr1 »

russellbeattie wrote: post #181
ethbr1 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's vogue to construct a view in which depression and inaction are the only logical conclusions, but that ain't our reality. > The administration is already ignoring the law with impunity Can you provide an example where they've ignored a Supreme Court ruling? And the histrionics around this are uniquely relative to modern norms. Look up the shenanigans around Marbury v Madison https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki…

I could respond in detail to each pedantic item, but you seem knowledgeable enough to know them already, so here's a summary: There's plenty of non-SCOTUS laws that have been ignored. The gerrymandering is being nationally coordinated. Comparing Trump to Hoover is farcical and you know it. The word "histrionic" is what really got me though. We're well past the stage where anyone deeply cynical about the state of thin…

Histrionic: deliberately affected, overly dramatic or emotional

I.e. anyone who believes that adjectives suffice where facts fail

There are things that are not happening and things that are happening. Trying to phrase the former into the latter doesn't do anything but hasten a post-truth era.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#214

Post by ethbr1 »

exasperaited wrote: post #193
ethbr1 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have 3 years, 5 months and 12 days left The midterms are in 2026. A swapped House (and/or Senate, but less likely) would drastically shift power.

> The midterms are in 2026. What is it they say in America? "Oh sweet, summer child?" Honestly and seriously: look at the abuse of power and its escalation. Consider the consequences to Trump if he lets the House flip. Impeachment again and this time removal really would seem likely. Now consider, in all detached seriousness: why would a man who tried a coup and thinks he can disappear people to El Salvador let that…

> why would a man who tried a coup and thinks he can disappear people to El Salvador let that happen?

Because he has an ego the size of a planet and cares about his legacy.

Being remembered as the president that broke democracy is not his mental narrative.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#215

Post by Seb-C »

Jimmc414 wrote: post #25
panarchy wrote: post #8

There's a reason the Americans discovered how to make atomic weapons first and it's because their researchers were living under a less oppressive state that wasn't motivated by anti-intellectualism and dumb ideology.

While I agree in spirit on the concern about political interference in science, the Manhattan Project was actually one of the most secretive, tightly controlled government programs in US history. In addition many scientists involved (like Oppenheimer) later faced political persecution during the McCarthy era. American atomic research succeeded despite, or perhaps because of, intense state control and funding

The Manhattan project was an engineering project, not so much a scientific one. It was only made possible because the science and theories behind it were discovered first.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#216

Post by sporkland »

jjav wrote: post #114
BrenBarn wrote: post #107

If an executive order can put grants under political control, they were already under political control. We just didn't know it. That is the case with so much of what is happening now. If these things are possible, the system was already broken.

In software terms, there has been a vulnerability in the constitution all along, it just had not been exploited until now. The three branches of government are supposed to be checks and balances against each other. But turns out two of the three don't have any actual power to enforce their mandates. This has worked as long as the three branches grudgingly respected each others role. But now that the executive branch…

The founding fathers didn't see the corrupting influence of political parties on the separation of powers. It's covered quite well in this SMBC related comic: https://www.lawsandsausagescomic.com/comic/101

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#217

Post by jaybrendansmith »

exasperaited wrote: post #192
jaybrendansmith wrote: post #157

How would any of his actions, if looked at objectively, differ from the actions of one who was charged with the complete destruction of the United States of America.

He doesn't want to destroy the USA. Well not quite. He does want to fundamentally change it into an domestic empire -- a monarchical executive ruling over vassal states that have their own governments but must pay tribute. Well... he wants it to look more like a mafia arrangement because he was jealous of those guys back when he had a mafia lawyer in the 1970s. He likes to pressure people to do him little favours in…

Yes, not quite. But all that would obliterate the idea of the good ol' USA quite well: "I see a new nation ready to take its place in the world; not an empire, but a republic; and a republic of laws, not men."

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#218

Post by jrs235 »

russellbeattie wrote: post #55
ocschwar wrote: post #31

This ends science in the United States. You can't really enroll graduate students for a 5 year PHD project if their funding can be pulled at a moment's notice like this.

This year is definitely the beginning of the end for American scientific leadership. The damage being done is incalculable. The best and brightest simply aren't going to want to come to the U.S. for an uncertain future where they'll be harassed at the airport every trip and then defunded or deported at any time for "political" reasons (a.k.a. racism, bigotry, religion, ignorance and anti-intellectualism). Amazingly,…

But but but American Exceptionalism! Americans are the best and brightest! The rest of the world can't compete! /s

Those doing and supporting what's happening a) care only about power, b) honestly think they and America is superior, c) both and d) think this time is different assuming they are educated and know history.

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