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Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

projecthyperion.org

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Re: Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

#211

Post by random_is_rando »

throwaway290 wrote: post #139
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Particles are indistinguishable, this means that the specific particles that make up a physical object (like a human) are not important, you could replace all of them with different particles, ship of Theseus style, and it would be the same object. What makes an object unique then is the specific configuration of the particles that make up that object. This configuration is a form of information. Fortunately, we alre…

> Particles are indistinguishable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_(physics) A particle spins on any number of axes > You need something that harvests particles locally and can receive a stream of data with what to print You cannot obtain that data because this spin is impossible to measure)

Spin can be measured but what's the use for that? You can scan a chair and use the data to reassemble. If you get the wrong spins on particles do you not get the same chair? You're looking for a function which arises at higher level.

Re: Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

#212

Post by ben_w »

yincrash wrote: post #79
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Particles are indistinguishable, this means that the specific particles that make up a physical object (like a human) are not important, you could replace all of them with different particles, ship of Theseus style, and it would be the same object. What makes an object unique then is the specific configuration of the particles that make up that object. This configuration is a form of information. Fortunately, we alre…

There's a reason Star Trek teleporters have a "Heisenberg compensator", we cannot record both the position and momentum of a particle precisely. Scanning the "configuration of particles" to transmit to this theoretical printer is the first impossible roadblock. The human you scan can never be the same exact person printed.

The reason Trek has it is likely a common misunderstanding of QM: it's not only that we cannot record both position and momentum, the information does not exist in the first place.

It's easier to see why if you think about Fourier transforms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBnnXbOM5S4&themeRefresh=1

TLDW: an infinitely long wave does not (cannot) have any definite location, but it does have a definite periodic wavelength; conversely, a single impulse noise (a shockwave from e.g. a bullet or an explosion) has a definite location (in the direction of motion and at any given point in time) but no meaningful wavelength.

The more you constrain the possibility space of one, the looser the other becomes in a physical sense, not just the information you have about it.

Re: Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

#213

Post by JumpCrisscross »

andrewflnr wrote: post #137
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we are never leaving this solar system unless we discover some new physics to get around our speed limitations The winning proposal coasts at 0.01c. Propulsion systems--not the speed of light--and thus engineering, not phsyics, are the relevant limitors.

I read their comment as saying that current physics doesn't allow the kind of propulsion systems we need, even with optimal engineering and well below the lightspeed limit.

> current physics doesn't allow the kind of propulsion systems we need

Which is wrong. Direct-drive fusion fits the bill. It’s also easier than terrestrial power-generating fusion since you don’t need to convert to electricity.

Re: Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

#214

Post by JumpCrisscross »

mjevans wrote: post #151
os2warpman wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can build and maintain a system capable of sustaining the lives of 1,000 humans for 400 years, why do you care about interstellar travel anymore? “The indefatigable spirit of exploration” isn’t the answer. People, as a mass, only explore to find new resources due to scarcity. There are exceptions, but they tend to be thrill seekers or publicity hounds seeking to capitalize on a measure of fame upon their retur…

In that timeframe it would by nature need to be capable of full self repair, with the shipped materials and energy, and with no wasted byproducts. We'd have to completely re-think industrial processes. I'm in favor of realized nanotechnology and 3d printers at an atomic level. Evolution stumbled across carbon based lifeforms as it's answer on Earth.

> it would by nature need to be capable of full self repair

Why? If we can accelerate a small city to 0.01g in a year, we can accelerate smaller packages to catch up with it once a year.

Re: Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

#215

Post by random_is_rando »

alanbernstein wrote: post #67
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Particles are indistinguishable, this means that the specific particles that make up a physical object (like a human) are not important, you could replace all of them with different particles, ship of Theseus style, and it would be the same object. What makes an object unique then is the specific configuration of the particles that make up that object. This configuration is a form of information. Fortunately, we alre…

What "current and neat future technologies" do you suggest using for this approach?

https://blog.google/technology/research/google-ai-research-n...

Look into Assembly Theory as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_theory They already developed some kind of chemical printer for simple molecules.

Re: Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

#216

Post by dirkc »

codeulike wrote: post #2

Link to Canva presentation for the winning entry https://www.canva.com/design/DAGmr3ubC8E/LHHAeeAIGGQe_TkZVs-...

Thanks for sharing the presentation. I wish I could download it to look at it in a few years from now.

I hope durable file formats regain popularity before humanity starts embarking on interstellar voyages :)

Re: Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

#217

Post by ben_w »

vl wrote: post #96
yincrash wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a reason Star Trek teleporters have a "Heisenberg compensator", we cannot record both the position and momentum of a particle precisely. Scanning the "configuration of particles" to transmit to this theoretical printer is the first impossible roadblock. The human you scan can never be the same exact person printed.

If you can scan, why transmit at all? Just put the scan in simulation.

Right now, it's easier to scan than to simulate.

That said, we definitely don't have the means to 3D print even relatively simple tissues, last I checked we are still limited to structures thin enough to be kept alive by oxygen diffusion.

One of my open questions on this topic is: given we can cryopreserve small tissue without the freezing-damage problem, why can't we do a repeated process of:

1. cell culture tissue sheets that are ~1mm (or whatever) thick

2. cryopreserve each sheet

3. then assemble those sheets, still frozen

4. then thaw out as per normal procedure for cryopreserved organs

Caveat: I have minimal knowledge of biology, this may be a stupid idea for a whole bunch of reasons I don't even know the names of.

Re: Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

#218

Post by Ntrails »

abrenuntio wrote: post #203

No opinions on the ship itself, but the social proposals are very interesting :-) Earth biomes will be kept intact with respect to their natural evolution. But human society will be treated as an amoral engineering problem seeking to optimize a few measurable parameters chosen up front. There is little sense in this proposal that human beings will bring along with them original sin or whatever you want to call it. Bu…

> taking a group of volunteers to Antarctica to format them to a supposed sociocultural blank slate

I'd love to see an actual blueprint for making this work. I don't believe in it at all.

> They are not just governed with "mere" discipline

Unclear to me what discipline exists. There's no mention of crime and punishment or enforcement. It seems assumed that you'll have indoctrinated everyone sufficiently to not need it?

My working model of indoctrination and control is based on power imbalance. Once they're on the ship, I don't think "the AI's will control everything" is gonna fly forever.

Re: Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

#219

Post by M95D »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #82
codeulike wrote: post #2

Link to Canva presentation for the winning entry https://www.canva.com/design/DAGmr3ubC8E/LHHAeeAIGGQe_TkZVs-...

Where is the propulsion system design? Are all of these handwaving propulsion? They seem to all be habitat designs. Ok I'll take my shot at propulsion: Pulse nuclear BUT: For acceleration, we have a launch gun that fires more fuel at the ship, and the ship catches the fuel, imparting momentum from the catch, and more fuel for acceleration. For deceleration, we have pellets that it catches up to and uses the catching…

And if the ship misses one catch, trajectory changes and it misses all the next ones that were already on their way.

Re: Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

#220

Post by ben_w »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #209
Ekaros wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Energy is the limit. If used Wolfram Alpha right for reasonable comparison that is largest cruise ship with mass of 248663000 kg to speed up to 0.01c mentioned the kinetic energy would be 2.9 times the worlds fossil fuel reserves... Then double that to slow down. And remember efficiency and that well you need to spend some to keep people alive... Seems like energy in general is one of the true problems.

> If used Wolfram Alpha right for reasonable comparison that is largest cruise ship with mass of 248663000 kg to speed up to 0.01c mentioned the kinetic energy would be 2.9 times the worlds fossil fuel reserves This math is wrong. Back of the envelope: accelerating 250 x 10^6 kg to 1% of c over one year is about 310,000 TWh. That’s like half of current annual energy production. Even at like 10g, which would accelerat…

Your maths is correct.

Shame we don't have a way to efficiently convert fuel energy directly into a ship's kinetic energy, and have to go via conservation of momentum… though I suppose magnetic launch of interstellar vehicles would be a neat use for a Dyson shell or Niven ring?: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=0.5+*+1+gee+*+%280.01c%...

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