Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

cnbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 286 posts

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#211

Post by ehnto »

lblume wrote: post #200
mantas wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such is life in dense cities where workplaces are concentrated. And pace of life requires humans to take shorter path which is safe enough. At least it’s much safer than in the era of the horses. And sanitary conditions are much better.

Density is fundamentally incompatible with car-friendly cities and a large amount of road. In general, the denser a city becomes, the more people will go by foot, cycle, or use public transport, especially in Europe.

Roads take up an enormous amount of space, as does parking. We could capture significant real estate opportunities back from roads in cities that have multi-lane roads going through the CBD (mine has like a dozen criss crossing it). It wouldn't be an overnight thing, but close off a block of road, rezone it and sell it off, you'll get a bunch of new high density buildings that are walkable (since any roads going through will have to be narrow)

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#212

Post by lblume »

motorest wrote: post #194
guywithahat wrote: post #4

> The company must pay $329 million in damages to victims and survivor, including compensatory and punitive damages. > A Tesla owner named George McGee was driving his Model S electric sedan while using the company’s Enhanced Autopilot, a partially automated driving system. > While driving, McGee dropped his mobile phone that he was using and scrambled to pick it up. He said during the trial that he believed Enhanced…

> On one hand I don't think you can apply a price to a human life, but on the other 329 million feels too high, (...) Let me stop you right there. That's not how damages work. Damages have two goals: compensate victims, and dissuade offenders from repeating the same mistakes. The latter involves punishments that discourage repeat offenses. That's where these high values come from. They are intended to force the likes…

I tend to agree, however the government is not an unincentivized incentivizer. By being able to impose such fines, the government is potentially itself incentivized to not prevent these accidents for they potentially cause this kind of revenue.

There are ways to mitigate this, such as forcing the government to use these revenues in a way that is relevant to the issue at hand, i.e. creating safety jobs, strengthening control authorities, or something else.

You could also say that the amount is insignificant, but that could of course change with every lawsuit, and it of course accumulates. Or one could speculate that the interests are not really monetarily aligned at all (e.g. prisons), or that the judicial system is independent enough to stop propagation of these incentives. I think it is still needed to consider and try to controlledly align these motives between the relevant actors.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#213

Post by nabla9 »

"Tesla designed Autopilot only for controlled-access highways yet deliberately chose not to restrict drivers from using it elsewhere, alongside Elon Musk telling the world Autopilot drove better than humans" https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c93dqpkwx4xo

This is a clear case of misleading marketing. Spreading deceptive information and then hiding contradictory details in the fine print simply won't fly.

Intent is central to legal interpretation. There's been a clear intent to mislead about Tesla Autopilot's capabilities for years, and it's finally starting to backfire. It doesn't matter if Tesla is, on average, better if individual cases are lost due to constant misleading marketing.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#214

Post by jwagenet »

ivape wrote: post #188

Car travel is such a weird thing. The other day I was walking on the driver side of a wide street where cars were passing me by very fast. Most of us are usually an arms length away from passing cars when we do that, roughly an arms length away from being hit at 20+ mph, yet humans do this careful beam walking without flinching. It’s the American version of Indians riding the roof of a train. If you goto a third worl…

Merely dropping speed limits doesn’t work. Speed limits not enforced by road design such as road/lane width (real or by parked cars) or other features (bulb outs, neck downs) are speed suggestions.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#215

Post by octo888 »

ivape wrote: post #188

Car travel is such a weird thing. The other day I was walking on the driver side of a wide street where cars were passing me by very fast. Most of us are usually an arms length away from passing cars when we do that, roughly an arms length away from being hit at 20+ mph, yet humans do this careful beam walking without flinching. It’s the American version of Indians riding the roof of a train. If you goto a third worl…

(tangent)

Train travel is such a weird thing. The service, staff, stock, pricing, timetable etc is set by civil servants and politicians 250 miles away.

The ticketing system is Byzantine and if you make a mistake you get a fine or a criminal record, unless you look like a thug, in which case the staff rarely bother.

Tickets are miraculously priced similar to driving in many instances despite a train looking nothing like a car. In various cases, more expensive than driving

You can be late because a politician 200 miles away annoyed the staff so they decide not to turn up.

It also turns out services on Sunday ran on good will (overtime), so the annoyed staff who get ok pay rises now realised they don't want the overtime so good luck travelling on a Sunday in quite a few areas.

Because of low enforcement of infringements by thugs, they are drawn to the service. You'd think your very high ticket price would include some kind of security? No. Fuck you.

When the trains break down you are expected to be OK with being trapped on a train for hours with no open windows or working toilets because of some "greater good" and insufficient emergency response

I used to be extremely pro public transport

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#216

Post by mantas »

lblume wrote: post #200
mantas wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such is life in dense cities where workplaces are concentrated. And pace of life requires humans to take shorter path which is safe enough. At least it’s much safer than in the era of the horses. And sanitary conditions are much better.

Density is fundamentally incompatible with car-friendly cities and a large amount of road. In general, the denser a city becomes, the more people will go by foot, cycle, or use public transport, especially in Europe.

Oh it is. You get traffic jams and that’s not exactly car-friendly. But still people drive. On top of that, walking on a sidewalk when a bus pass close by is much more interesting than a car passing. And then there’s all the commercial traffic that is necessary to serve a dense city.

And many cities, especially here in Europe, are dense enough to need some mode of transit. Especially with workplaces concentrated either in office parks or industrial districts by the city. But not multi million megapolies that warrant a sweet metro system. And that’s where cars shine.

Although after living in one of the largest cities on earth with a very nice train system… there’s still plenty of traffic. And people still drive. Especially those who can’t afford living in city core and end up in cheaper more remote locations.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#217

Post by jb1991 »

ivape wrote: post #188

Car travel is such a weird thing. The other day I was walking on the driver side of a wide street where cars were passing me by very fast. Most of us are usually an arms length away from passing cars when we do that, roughly an arms length away from being hit at 20+ mph, yet humans do this careful beam walking without flinching. It’s the American version of Indians riding the roof of a train. If you goto a third worl…

One of the things that is particularly strange about traveling to the United States is that you pretty much have no choice but to rent a car or at least have access to a car in some way, unless you’re going to be spending all your time in a place like New York City. But in nearly every other major western destination, certainly throughout much of Europe, it’s never even a thought that you would need to rent a car. I know plenty of grown adults here in Europe they don’t even have a drivers license! It really makes life a lot more convenient when the world does not revolve around an automobile.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#218

Post by Dylan16807 »

motorest wrote: post #194
guywithahat wrote: post #4

> The company must pay $329 million in damages to victims and survivor, including compensatory and punitive damages. > A Tesla owner named George McGee was driving his Model S electric sedan while using the company’s Enhanced Autopilot, a partially automated driving system. > While driving, McGee dropped his mobile phone that he was using and scrambled to pick it up. He said during the trial that he believed Enhanced…

> On one hand I don't think you can apply a price to a human life, but on the other 329 million feels too high, (...) Let me stop you right there. That's not how damages work. Damages have two goals: compensate victims, and dissuade offenders from repeating the same mistakes. The latter involves punishments that discourage repeat offenses. That's where these high values come from. They are intended to force the likes…

> Damages have two goals: compensate victims, and dissuade offenders

Let me stop you right there. Just the compensatory damages were 129 million. And most of that was charged to the driver, no corporate boost there.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#219

Post by mantas »

ehnto wrote: post #211
lblume wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Density is fundamentally incompatible with car-friendly cities and a large amount of road. In general, the denser a city becomes, the more people will go by foot, cycle, or use public transport, especially in Europe.

Roads take up an enormous amount of space, as does parking. We could capture significant real estate opportunities back from roads in cities that have multi-lane roads going through the CBD (mine has like a dozen criss crossing it). It wouldn't be an overnight thing, but close off a block of road, rezone it and sell it off, you'll get a bunch of new high density buildings that are walkable (since any roads going thro…

And then you get business parks on the outskirts of the city. Because otherwise both employees and visitors complain about parking. Which makes cheaper suburbs more compelling. And some people living downtown driving to workplaces in outskirts of the city.

At least that’s what is happening in my whereabouts. I remember when I was kid downtown was prime location for regular shopping and doing daily business. Now all of that moved to big box stores along major traffic arteries. Nowadays downtown is just a tourist trap with super expensive boutiques. I still go there to take a walk once a year or so, but besides that there’s no reason to there anymore for vast majority of people. But suburbs life is flourishing… With shops and services that are needed for every day life. Cheap and good eateries. Even casual entertainment is moving away from the city core.

All in all, not sure if it’s good or bad. I couldn’t afford living in downtown even in old era. And now I can live comfy life in suburbs. Not helping much to lower total amount of traffic though.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#220

Post by Dylan16807 »

MBCook wrote: post #153
abeppu wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the conceptually messed up part is, when such an award includes separate components for compensatory damages and punitive damages, the plaintiff receives the punitive damages even if they're part of a much broader class that was impacted by the conduct in question. E.g. how many people's choice to purchase a Tesla was influenced by the deceptive marketing? How many other people had accidents or some damages?…

So if I make a lawsuit and prove there is a small possibility my toaster can cause my arm to be cut off, because that’s what it did to me, and win $400,000,000 I should only get $400 if it turns out they sold 1 million units? It’s not a class action lawsuit. If they want their cash they should sue too. That’s how our system works.

No, you misread that pretty significantly. They're only talking about splitting up the punitive damages.

Using the tesla numbers you'd get somewhere between 43 and 129 million dollars personally, plus a share of the 200 million. And your share of the 200 million would probably be a lot higher than someone merely defrauded. And the 200 million would probably get a lot bigger in a proper class action.

If you want numbers for your theoretical you'll have to specify how much was compensatory and how much was punitive.

Post reply on HN