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Windsurf employee #2: I was given a payout of only 1% what my shares where worth

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Re: Windsurf employee #2: I was given a payout of only 1% what my shares where worth

#211
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my equity from 2years pre-acquisition: ~$2800. Then the CEO gave out bonuses when everyone threatened to quit. Then after his 3 month vacation to Italy, he came back driving his new Ferrari. My equity from 4 years ( employee ~60, grew to over 500 ): worthless. No one is able to exercise any options. They also readjusted when the valuation came below the total raised, making the value of my vested shares ~$13k ( down…

I often see job postings here looking for "top <1% engineer talent" paying $100k and <1% equity and I wonder who is actually applying.

Not a 1% engineer

Re: Windsurf employee #2: I was given a payout of only 1% what my shares where worth

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nope, it happens in "good businesses". once real money is on the line, everything is a dog fight. no one talks publicly because of the reputational repurcussions

not ime. you're also much more likely to get sued for this when real money is involved. cases that i know personally (and myself) either did ok and got pay out or everyone went to zero (below or close to strike price) but founders got secondaries (which screws VCs not the employees).

seen many many cases first hand in NYC. Also, as an individual its very hard to sue a company with a huge amount of VC funding. you need a 100k to burn on it to even have a basic chance, and most cases are a legal gray area, most lawyers wont even take the case.

even finding a lawyer with the expertise to handle a case like this is not easy, its a very small world among those types of lawyers

Re: Windsurf employee #2: I was given a payout of only 1% what my shares where worth

#213
post #192

Engineers: always negotiate for higher base salaries. In the vast majority of cases—especially during acquihires—your equity will be worth little or nothing. Founders and VCs still get paid; employees rarely do. Don't just accept promises. Ask for the 409A valuation, liquidation preferences, and pay bands. If a company won’t provide transparency, that’s your signal. Equity is a lottery ticket. Salary is money in the…

my equity from 2years pre-acquisition: ~$2800. Then the CEO gave out bonuses when everyone threatened to quit. Then after his 3 month vacation to Italy, he came back driving his new Ferrari. My equity from 4 years ( employee ~60, grew to over 500 ): worthless. No one is able to exercise any options. They also readjusted when the valuation came below the total raised, making the value of my vested shares ~$13k ( down…

I worked for an ed-tech startup as employee number 4, joined when it was obscure; not even in the Alexa top 4 million rankings and almost no revenue. The founder was really good though and gave everyone shares instead of options. I got a bit under 0.2% equity in the company. The company grew (slowly and steadily) to $6.5 million USD revenue with about 10% net profit margins but its last valuation (over 10 years later) was like $8 million USD. They charge like $15 USD PER YEAR PER student for their product so very cheap; I feel like they could easily increase the prices given how widely used they are in my country (over 30% of students in my country use the app).

I had the option to sell some equity recently but it would have only been like $16K USD so I held... I had about $9K taken out of my salary to pay for those so it doesn't make sense to sell given the massive growth the app and not that much dilution... The financial gain barely covers the inflation.

It feels like both revenue and profits have been kept artificially low. $6.5 million per year revenue, still growing steadily, with a loyal customer base with 10% profit seems really good... A valuation of $8 million seems ridiculously low... Not even 2x revenue, for a tech platform with good lock-in factor (they sell a lot of licenses to schools)!

It's kind of amazing how bad a deal it is to work for someone else as an employee. Even if the founder is good and generous in many ways and the business side (which you have little control over as a developer) happens to work out pretty well, they can still pull all sorts of levers to make the deal bad. With this one, I'm going to wait it out 20 years if I must. A lot of the game is just timing, you gotta wait it out, sell at the top... Some people see a peak opportunity to cash-in multiple times in their lives, some people never see it! In my case, I haven't seen the top yet.

I never had any opportunity to make serious money ever. Never had an opportunity to pull the trigger and make even $100K. The best I ever got was in crypto, my crypto was worth $100K but I was earning like 100% annual yield and required a 1-month unlock period. So I made more than that by holding it for 3 years anyway...

I think my career story so far is quite interesting. Probably more interesting than 99% of the classic SV startup stories (at least what they say publicly). I've done some things nobody else has done. Made money in truly adverse environments where a lot of people hated my guts. I've seen people behave in strange ways. At times, I felt like I was almost breaking through the membrane of 'the matrix'; almost transcending my social class. But all I got for it was 3 years of passive income. I never had the opportunity to cash out big.

It's tough out there, so tough, it often feels fake/artificial. Often, it feels like you have to be 'chosen' and that's all that matters. Your work doesn't matter, how talented you are doesn't matter, how lucky you get doesn't matter (besides the luck of 'being chosen').

At the end of the day, money is like a river and people upstream from you get to decide whether or not the river will flow in your direction. When you understand that new money is created constantly and, just like the river, the water cycles between the mountain and the sea, you start to understand the value of positioning and 'being selected'. The people upstream will keep telling you that they don't control the flow of money; that the river flows naturally through the lowest valleys... It's your job to put yourself in that low valley... But really, they've built massive dams up there directing the water almost arbitrarily. You may be at the lowest valley but they're redirecting the water elsewhere artificially because it suits them better. Reality is that they can easily alter the path of the river anywhere they want and it has little to do with 'building something people want'. It's about building something the people upstream want... And sometimes they just want to help their existing friends; unfortunate for you if you are not their friend.

It's a catch-22; you need rich friends to get money but you need money to get rich friends. But I suspect it's way easier for a poor person to get rich by befriending a rich person than it is for a poor person to get rich without rich friends. The second approach feels like you're piercing through 'the matrix' because of all the weird almost conspiratorial resistance you might get (tech feels like one big club).

Sometimes you might accumulate some dirt on some rich people and that gives you some leverage over them but it's the kind of leverage where you have to keep coming back to them to get crumbs. I feel like you can never break through that way due to regulatory capture. You can only do limited damage to them and it's always costly to you. They still have the balance of power.

Re: Windsurf employee #2: I was given a payout of only 1% what my shares where worth

#214
post #192

Engineers: always negotiate for higher base salaries. In the vast majority of cases—especially during acquihires—your equity will be worth little or nothing. Founders and VCs still get paid; employees rarely do. Don't just accept promises. Ask for the 409A valuation, liquidation preferences, and pay bands. If a company won’t provide transparency, that’s your signal. Equity is a lottery ticket. Salary is money in the…

my equity from 2years pre-acquisition: ~$2800. Then the CEO gave out bonuses when everyone threatened to quit. Then after his 3 month vacation to Italy, he came back driving his new Ferrari. My equity from 4 years ( employee ~60, grew to over 500 ): worthless. No one is able to exercise any options. They also readjusted when the valuation came below the total raised, making the value of my vested shares ~$13k ( down…

I know this is HN but imo it's rarely ever a good deal to work at startups as an employee instead of a cofounder (with actual cofounder equity not just the title i.e. within the same order of magnitude as the largest-shareholding cofounder), over a bigger established company.

The only good reasons to do so are if you want to learn or make contacts so that you can found your own startup later.

In my pensive moments, one of the things about humans that makes me go "god damn" is how little money it takes for insanely talented people to just come and work for you.

Re: Windsurf employee #2: I was given a payout of only 1% what my shares where worth

#215
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some point, aren't the C Suite and directors failing their fiduciary responsibility? I know they have broad freedoms, but when you're reducing an a minority shareholder's equity by 95%, it's well past "fiduciary responsibility" and looking like fraud.

I am convinced every executive and wanna-be executive is on the 'inside joke' of funneling money out of the company into their pockets. I am also convinced that investors believe it's the C Suite's responsibility to tear away any equity from employees to leave the largest pot for investors.

Anyone that doesn't think this is delusional.

Re: Windsurf employee #2: I was given a payout of only 1% what my shares where worth

#216
post #192

Engineers: always negotiate for higher base salaries. In the vast majority of cases—especially during acquihires—your equity will be worth little or nothing. Founders and VCs still get paid; employees rarely do. Don't just accept promises. Ask for the 409A valuation, liquidation preferences, and pay bands. If a company won’t provide transparency, that’s your signal. Equity is a lottery ticket. Salary is money in the…

my equity from 2years pre-acquisition: ~$2800. Then the CEO gave out bonuses when everyone threatened to quit. Then after his 3 month vacation to Italy, he came back driving his new Ferrari. My equity from 4 years ( employee ~60, grew to over 500 ): worthless. No one is able to exercise any options. They also readjusted when the valuation came below the total raised, making the value of my vested shares ~$13k ( down…

The fun part comes when you put in 20 years doing this, and your dream is to buy a nice house, and you finally get your seven-figure payout, and.... it's not enough to buy a house. Because now a house is 3 million dollars.

Re: Windsurf employee #2: I was given a payout of only 1% what my shares where worth

#218
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Likewise with non-guaranteed bonuses (gotta love the "plus a discretionary bonus!" commentary during offer discussions). It's always worth offering to take equity as long as they agree in writing to not ever dilute your shares and vest them immediately. However, it's unlikely that any company will agree. It's best to imagine compensation as exactly one's salary. Then (virtually) all surprises are good.

> It's always worth offering to take equity as long as they agree in writing to not ever dilute your shares and vest them immediately. However, it's unlikely that any company will agree. Well, yes, because that’s insane.

I think it makes perfect sense. It's a guaranteed incentive for a potential employee to increase the value of the company and act in its best interest.

Absent those guarantees, it's smoke, nothing, kaput: 1.5% equity or whatever % can become approximately 0% and there's nothing the employee can do about it.

They could structure the agreement in other ways to incentivize the potential employee: if additional shares are issued, pay a dividend to the employee.

Re: Windsurf employee #2: I was given a payout of only 1% what my shares where worth

#219
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some point, aren't the C Suite and directors failing their fiduciary responsibility? I know they have broad freedoms, but when you're reducing an a minority shareholder's equity by 95%, it's well past "fiduciary responsibility" and looking like fraud.

I am convinced every executive and wanna-be executive is on the 'inside joke' of funneling money out of the company into their pockets. I am also convinced that investors believe it's the C Suite's responsibility to tear away any equity from employees to leave the largest pot for investors.

ive been in these rooms and heard the conversations, employees are seen as disposable liabilities

Re: Windsurf employee #2: I was given a payout of only 1% what my shares where worth

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Likewise with non-guaranteed bonuses (gotta love the "plus a discretionary bonus!" commentary during offer discussions). It's always worth offering to take equity as long as they agree in writing to not ever dilute your shares and vest them immediately. However, it's unlikely that any company will agree. It's best to imagine compensation as exactly one's salary. Then (virtually) all surprises are good.

I don’t see how a company could promise this. Everyone gets diluted for every funding round, for example.

They can easily, they just don't.
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