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IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

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Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#211

Post by vineyardmike »

comandillos wrote: post #136
WhyNotHugo wrote: post #21

This sucks. Matter is a closed ecosystem, enforced using a public key infrastructure (PKI) and device attestation certificates. Thread seems to require paying royalties if you want to ship devices. It’s disappointing that IKEA claims that this move is towards a more open ecosystem. On top of that, the switch breaks compatibility with existing hardware (except for the Touchlink functionality). If you have a bunch of Z…

This isn't entirely true, isn't it? I mean, the whole internet runs on a PKI and we need such a mechanism to ensure secure communication across devices in the network. I understand home devices that contain all sort of sensors and actuators should be handled in a similar fashion, isn't it? I mean, that PKI doesn't exclude non-approved manufacturers from producing Matter devices, you can always trust their PAA (their…

You’re partially correct, but you’ve got enough details wrong details that you’re misrepresenting reality.

Matter has a public blockchain with certificates added to enforce which products are considered certified. This is called the distributed compliance ledger (DCL). The hardware devices are expected to ship with certificates on them that match the public ones, and it’s generally not possible to change the on-device certs.

This is distinct from “normal” internet PKI certificate authority where you can just swap out a few files or grab a new cert from Let’s Encrypt. Because this uses a dedicated blockchain with a history of signatures. Depending on how you want to control the device, you’d need to rebuild the whole chain of trust, including eg signatures from Google or Apple.

Also, from a practical perspective, I’m not sure of any actual controllers that let you point to different certificate sources. You can create devices with a “test vendor ID” (0xFFFF) and the controllers are supposed to ignore certs. This has downsides, like OTA updates require signing, you can’t encode proper identifiers in the device so info pages in apps are wrong, etc.

Also, the “border router” isn’t really the point of trust here, it’d be the actual controller device. A border router is just that, an IP router, like a WiFi router or a Ethernet router.

https://webui.dcl.csa-iot.org/

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#212

Post by vineyardmike »

snickerdoodle12 wrote: post #204
mardifoufs wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that true for ZigBee too? Can you sell ZigBee devices (and market them as such) without paying fees?

There are no technical limitations preventing this.

No technically limitations, just legal ones. Which are famously irrelevant to international commerce?

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#213

Post by aenis »

Toutouxc wrote: post #31
WhyNotHugo wrote: post #21

This sucks. Matter is a closed ecosystem, enforced using a public key infrastructure (PKI) and device attestation certificates. Thread seems to require paying royalties if you want to ship devices. It’s disappointing that IKEA claims that this move is towards a more open ecosystem. On top of that, the switch breaks compatibility with existing hardware (except for the Touchlink functionality). If you have a bunch of Z…

> If you have a bunch of Zigbee devices, but at some point want to add some of the new ones, you need to start thinking about replacing all the perfectly working Zigbee devices or have a fragmented network. Yes, if you're using the manufacturer's half-assed smartphone app, but if you're on Home Assistant, like basically anyone who's serious about their smart home, having multiple kinds of smart devices isn't really a…

Depends on your 2.4GHz band's saturation. Where I live I have only a few "good" channels. I have about 350 zigbee devices over two separate networks - and thus two channels - and the remaining good 2.4GHz channels are used by the physically separate IoT WiFi network. I dont want to deal with yet another network that may or may not like the channel I have to put it on.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#214

Post by iamdelirium »

snickerdoodle12 wrote: post #204
mardifoufs wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that true for ZigBee too? Can you sell ZigBee devices (and market them as such) without paying fees?

There are no technical limitations preventing this.

You cannot legally certify something as Zigbee with paying a fee. This is the same for Matter.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#215

Post by AceJohnny2 »

alsko wrote: post #16
nick__m wrote: post #8

I don't understand the problem that thread solves that zigbee doesn't! The article says that thread doesn't require a hub but it require a border gateway that is almost indistinguishable from a hub. And as far as my home assistant setup is concerned, it doesn't require a hub, only a zigbee radio. The only thing that seems to advantage thread is manufacturers support, but I don't see what's stopped them to regroup aro…

Matter was created by the Connectivity Standards Alliance (CSA), formerly known as the Zigbee Alliance! Basically, Matter is the next generation Zigbee. Thread as a protocol predates Matter, and it is just one of the supported transports, together with Wifi and Ethernet (for now). Edit: One thing Matter adds that was not in Zigbee is Bluetooth provisioning, letting you use your phone to add a device to your network w…

> letting you use your phone

Requiring you to use your phone.

I understand the value in streamlining the flow for the Average Joe, but as a power user I wish there were an escape hatch. Ultimately, it's a minor quibble. It is a much more streamlined setup.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#216

Post by qwerpy »

DavideNL wrote: post #208
iamspoilt wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I second that. Home Assistant "just works". I have had it running on this cheap used HP EliteDesk 705 G3 Mini Desktop for more than 4 years now without a hiccup and barely any maintenance or hygeing work on it. Just sitting in my tv stand and doing it's work. https://homeautomation.substack.com/p/setting-up-home-assist...

Curious, do you do HA updates automatically, manually regularly, or “manually once a year or so”?

Not who you asked, but I do it “manually once a year or so” on a HA instance in a container running on unraid. It sometimes causes problems. Recently HACS (not a built-in part of HA but useful to get some extensions) broke on a HA update and I had to spend more time that I would have liked figuring out how to fix it. It involved running shell commands inside the container. Definitely not for anyone who isn't a techie.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#217

Post by wafflemaker »

macNchz wrote: post #93
Toutouxc wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have a bunch of Zigbee devices, but at some point want to add some of the new ones, you need to start thinking about replacing all the perfectly working Zigbee devices or have a fragmented network. Yes, if you're using the manufacturer's half-assed smartphone app, but if you're on Home Assistant, like basically anyone who's serious about their smart home, having multiple kinds of smart devices isn't really a…

Perhaps I never put enough effort into it, but I've slowly coalesced on only having IKEA smart home products after years of acquiring piecemeal stuff and trying to wire it together with Home Assistant. I've shut down HA, and with every non-IKEA "smart" thing I have nowadays I just use the manufacturer's app (though I've become pretty sour on most smart devices overall and avoid them when possible). I didn't really ca…

I have about 20 Phillips Hue bulbs at home. My younger brother laughed at me for spending a small fortune on them. Approx 1 bulb per year dies and requires a replacement. Other than that everything just works after the initial setup - daylight like automation.

I even once had my wife add a bulb and while it wasn't easy, she did it.

When a year later I asked brother about the some random bulb he had - didn't work anymore.

It's even better, because Norwegian law gives 5y guarantee on electronics - could just have this bulb replaced as faulty in the shop.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#218

Post by zeehio »

macNchz wrote: post #167
turtlebits wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Home Assistant "just works". Yes it has a ton of knobs, but in the 3 years I've been running it, it's had no issues. Certain manufacturer devices being flaky, yes, but as a platform, it's been rock solid. I've not touched its config in over a year and everything works as it should.

I guess the fact that some manufacturer integrations are flaky is hard to reconcile for me as far as the promise of "having multiple kinds of smart devices isn't really a problem". Regardless of whose fault it is, those flaky devices contribute to a less stable system. It's been a bit since I was operating it, but I did at times certainly have issues with updates—perhaps just individual plugins or system updates that…

I have been using Home Assistant for more than 5 years. The stability of the system has improved a lot in the last year. I don't recall the last time I had to reinstall or restore a backup.

At the beginning (0.7 or maybe even earlier) I remember to have to reconfigure or reset my instance a few times a year. Those times are long gone.

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#219

Post by AceJohnny2 »

AndrewDucker wrote: post #18
nick__m wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that possible when thread use an ipv6 stack over 802.15.4 while zigbee use a simpler stack also over 802.15.4 ? The only thing I see is that manufacturers prefer an ip stack because it's "easier" to develop for.

An excellent question - all I can do is point you at the research. See the top graph here: https://www.reddit.com/r/homeautomation/comments/nxmehn/clea...

(offtopic) from the link

> as redundant and safe as the internet

Ahaha! Haaahahaha! i'm choking

(Joking aside, I get that their point is they leverage the decades of work into IPv6 rather than recreate their own ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of the IP stack, but man did that phrasing get me)

Re: IKEA ditches Zigbee for Thread going all in on Matter smart homes

#220

Post by lukeschlather »

bevr1337 wrote: post #163
lukeschlather wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the problem is a lack of realism about what is required to meet the usability standards of traditional analog switches. Like, I hear you talking about a tradeoff between security and usability for a "rare" provisioning event but I think in practice if you imagine a device has a 10 year lifespan, I would guess that making the provisioning hardware probably translates into at a minimum a full month of downt…

> if you imagine a device has a 10 year lifespan, I would guess that making the provisioning hardware probably translates into at a minimum a full month of downtime over the lifespan of the device, with many devices being down for months or years at a time because no one can be bothered to figure out why. Can you explain more about how you reached this conclusion? Why are devices offline for years now?

The Bluetooth connection gets screwed up for some reason and it needs to be reprovisioned. The device is in a room which isn't really the domain of the person who can reprovision it. Whoever is actually affected by the outage can't fix it, has to realize that it's a solvable problem and ask the person who can solve it to fix it. This social problem of recognizing that a chore needs to be done will likely take at least a week, typically a month or even years to resolve.

And the whole point of this is to provide a seamless experience that's easier than using a physical switch. But in practice this just generates chores that are actually more time-consuming than simply using a physical switch. (Even in the single-user setup, I can imagine that I actually just revert to using whatever hardware controls are available on the device for quite some time because reprovisioning it is too much of a chore, and whatever wireless options it provides are not worth doing that chore.)

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