Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers • Hacker News Board

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#211

Post by zaphar » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 1:13 AM UTC

wilsonnb3 wrote: post #200

zaphar wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The user can hack the product, install a different OS, Strike it with a hammer, or throw it away. Apple hasn't violated their rights in any way. Sure hacking it or installing a different OS are hard but rights are not meant to guarantee something is easy. I never bought the argument that user rights should dictate how a product hardware or software should be manufactured.

In some philosophical views, rights are meant to guarantee that things are easy. You can see that exact dynamic play out in US states regarding voter ID laws.

Perhaps, but I disagree with those views.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#212

Post by efitz » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 1:16 AM UTC

6510 wrote: post #203

jeffbee wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "complex labyrinth" is only reinforcing the impression that you and the author of that brief are both cranks. "Email" is the top setting under "Default Apps". My iPhone doesn't even offer Apple's Mail app in that screen, probably because I deleted it, which also was not labyrinthine but actually quite trivial.

home screen > settings > default apps > email Easy if you know where to look. If you end up in the wrong sub menu you might simply search the web for instructions. Apple provides web pages where they explain how to use the iphone. There is a section called "mail" under "apps" that shows up in the search results. It really wants me to read the help in dutch, the "apps > mail" section has 14 pages that don't talk about…

> Easy if you know where to look. If you end up in the wrong sub menu you might simply search the web for instructions.

Actually, at the very top of the home page of the settings app is a search bar. If you type in anything reasonable (default, email, mail) then one of the first 2-3 results will be “default apps” or “default email”.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#213

Post by anonymars » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 1:24 AM UTC

bitpush wrote: post #158

hbn wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most evil thing a tech company has done is make a proprietary messaging app? Apple didn't make SMS bad, it just was. Apple has since implemented RCS and it hasn't changed how I communicate with people from my iPhone at all. Google should probably take most of the blame for repeatedly fumbling messaging on non-Apple platforms for the past 2 decades. Every time they had something that was getting any amount of trac…

How did you manage to shift the conversation to Google in a thread about Apple?

I think the point was that if Google weren't so inept, iMessage wouldn't be such a monopoly

And you know, maybe they have a point. I especially think about Microsoft and MSN Messenger/Skype. How do you fumble away not one but two dominant messaging apps?

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#214

Post by ThatPlayer » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 1:27 AM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #201

ryoshoe wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does Apple's global marketshare matter when the suit is being brought to US courts where Apple holds the majority of the market

Because companies compete globally, not just locally? Apple isn't building features to compete with Samsung only in the US. It's a global dynamic. Local competition is restricted to tiny subsets of features. And it's only 57-42 for Apple in the US anyways. If it were 90-10 then sure. But 57-42 is what you get with strong competition. Having a majority doesn't mean there's a lack of competition. It just means one comp…

Companies may be global, but individual consumers are not. Anti-trust is about consumer harm. So that's why local markets matter.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#215

Post by boris2293 » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 1:34 AM UTC

Apple can do anything it wants with its software. Just as any person decides who comes into his house, a corporation decides on what terms others can use its software.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#216

Post by charcircuit » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 1:56 AM UTC

lillecarl wrote: post #81

charcircuit wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies should not be regulated just because they are successful. Apple built a really successful app platform. It's theirs to maintain or burn to the ground.

I didn't double check this, but according to a quick search 60% of the adult US population owns an iPhone, you're saying that even though you're operating where more than 50% of your target market has your products you should not be held accountable for predatory behavior? The thing with this 30% tax the private company Apple imposes on a majority of US adults is reasonable? When you're "competing" with the governmen…

>held accountable for predatory behavior?

Apple is held accountable by people choosing not to use their device. If iPhone is too expensive for the value it provides people won't use them.

>The thing with this 30% tax the private company Apple imposes on a majority of US adults is reasonable?

By this logic grocery stores have been applying a 30+% tax to all of America since the country was founded.

>but not allowing other stores OR allowing external payment methods to be advertised is definitely predatory behavior

Again comparing to a grocery store I think it is fair for them to prohibit unauthorized sellers to sell within their premises. This is a standard because it can undermine the business model of the business.

>But Apple makes a profit of iPhones, they make a profit on iCloud, they make profit on App Store... They make a profit everywhere.

And that's why Apple is worth 3 trillion and Sony isn't. Apple has created a successful business with large profit margins that people are willing to pay. It's not predatory if people are willing to pay for it.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#217

Post by lillecarl » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 2:11 AM UTC

charcircuit wrote: post #216

lillecarl wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't double check this, but according to a quick search 60% of the adult US population owns an iPhone, you're saying that even though you're operating where more than 50% of your target market has your products you should not be held accountable for predatory behavior? The thing with this 30% tax the private company Apple imposes on a majority of US adults is reasonable? When you're "competing" with the governmen…

>held accountable for predatory behavior? Apple is held accountable by people choosing not to use their device. If iPhone is too expensive for the value it provides people won't use them. >The thing with this 30% tax the private company Apple imposes on a majority of US adults is reasonable? By this logic grocery stores have been applying a 30+% tax to all of America since the country was founded. >but not allowing o…

It might not seem predatory to the end user, but to all developers who want to access these people it's another thing. They can't deliver a mobile app to 60% of Americans without going through Apples little LARP government where they set the tax to 30% and arbitrary rules they see fit to increase their profits.

And in the end that affects the end users because more things become useless adfilled crap because it's more profitable, and everything is more expensive.

I don't even get how you're comparing grocery stores (which do NOT have a 30% profit, maybe 4-6) to Apple passively making 30% off anyone who wants access to "modern day people". Grocery stores don't scale like virtual markets, when you buy something you cost the store money, when i buy whatever through App Store it costs Apple virtually nothing and they make 30% because they like it.

Obviously regulators seem to agree with me and at the end of the day they make the rules, and I agree with the regulators in this case and I don't think many people think what Apple is doing is good and appreciate it. People are forced into the iOS ecosystem because that's what everyone uses in some profitable parts of the world too.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#218

Post by danaris » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 2:51 AM UTC

Workaccount2 wrote: post #167

danaris wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is hopelessly exaggerated and bad-faith. First of all, when Apple created iMessage, there was no possible way for them to predict that friend groups would use it as a reason to treat members of their groups poorly due to using Android phones. Second of all, Apple did not deliberately make interacting with non-iMessage users in group chats "look like trash" in order to exclude them. Apple went out of its way to m…

http://theverge.com/2021/4/9/22375128/apple-imessage-android... >“iMessage on Android would simply serve to remove [an] obstacle to iPhone families giving their kids Android phones,” was Federighi’s concern according to the Epic filing. Among other statements. Apple was very aware of the social effects of iMessage, and leveraged it to force people into getting iphones. Tech companies have done lots of evil shit. But…

I'm sympathetic to the position that Apple could, if they chose, have made a version of iMessage for Android.

But your position that it is somehow uniquely evil just reads as a coping mechanism—a way of not having to blame your friends and family for being shitty for you.

I know plenty of "regular, non-tech people" who understand perfectly well that a) different computer systems do not work properly together, and b) if you choosing to use a particular computer system excludes someone because they do not have access to it, that's rude, discriminatory, and generally shitty behavior.

SMS not having the same features as iMessage is a technical issue, sure.

Apple not providing iMessage on Android was a business decision, no question.

But people being exclusionary and obnoxious to each other over group chats is a social issue, and should be treated as such, and not blamed on either the technical or business side of things.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#219

Post by DesiLurker » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 3:04 AM UTC

bitpush wrote: post #160

DesiLurker wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

google with their android anti-fragmentation-agreement is pretty predatory. basically release any/all android devices with google services and pay us cut or release none and use pure aosp. it is some next level shit.

huh. Isnt that what business deals are supposed to be? Two businesses entering into a business relationship, where both parties get something. OEMs get Google services & operating system, or OEMs are free to use open source project. Are you saying Google should freely give away their products?

nice strawman, first google honeypotted the smartphone-os sector with their AOSP (android opensource project). now when they killed every other option except apple & effectively became a monopoly for all smartphone vendors, they are using their monopoly power to prohibit companies from using aosp piecemeal. they are explicitly telling vendors if you make any device with google services then you cannot make an ungoogled device at-all. this is exact opposite of the open source spirit and highlights that they were never interested in opensource, they were doing pretty much what MS did in 90s, release a bundled shitty version of a popular app with OS so you can kill them and maintain dominant monopoly. they just weaponized oss with AOSP to kill off any contenders.

take a moment to think why amazon has no google services on their table and/or an amazon branded basic android smartphone, it would be super easy for them to do it (leave aside firephone .. for reasons).

How is this not monopoly abuse? if Lina Khan had any balls this is what she would have gone after.

edit: chatgpt explanation: https://chatgpt.com/share/686350ce-47dc-8008-8c30-14c6298d75...

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#220

Post by crazygringo » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 3:19 AM UTC

ThatPlayer wrote: post #214

crazygringo wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because companies compete globally, not just locally? Apple isn't building features to compete with Samsung only in the US. It's a global dynamic. Local competition is restricted to tiny subsets of features. And it's only 57-42 for Apple in the US anyways. If it were 90-10 then sure. But 57-42 is what you get with strong competition. Having a majority doesn't mean there's a lack of competition. It just means one comp…

Companies may be global, but individual consumers are not. Anti-trust is about consumer harm. So that's why local markets matter.

Sure if you're an ISP where you're the only choice in a neighborhood.

But I don't see much that's local about Apple vs. Samsung. It's the same phones for sale in the US or in Thailand. Literally as one-size-fits-all global as you can get.