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Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

thecity.nyc

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Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#211

Post by disattention »

ensignavenger wrote: post #185
kevingadd wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a bunch of armed thugs who aren't wearing uniforms or badges show up and abduct someone, citizens don't have the right or obligation to do something about it? Just stand back and watch? That's the world you want to live in, one where kidnappings are normal?

They were wearing uniforms, I watched the video. Badges were not clearly visible in the video, but they certainly had uniforms.

Anyone can literally just buy/make a uniform. Especially concerning if badges aren't visible. This argument doesn't hold much water imo.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#212

Post by pyuser583 »

sjsdaiuasgdia wrote: post #54
mlsu wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another thing that is troubling is that immigration law is sort of a parallel system to normal criminal law. The rights for the accused are lesser and obligations for officers are more lax. The burden of proof is lower. It's easier to get warrants and the rules of evidence are more relaxed. There is a parallel authoritarian system being built up, starting with the creation of DHS in 2001 and ending god knows where. T…

> Why are the right libertarians and 2A folks not speaking up right now? “If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.” - Lyndon B. Johnson

Lyndon Johnson spent his entire life in government service, building a larger and larger state. The only pocket picking he knew was taxation.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#213

Post by someothherguyy »

unyttigfjelltol wrote: post #191
someothherguyy wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your outrage is not that ICE is acting illegally but that they are enforcing US law. https://www.aclu.org/news/immigrants-rights/how-ice-sidestep...

Again, I pointed out ICE is enforcing US law, and you responded with an article about Colorado law. In a different time, public officials in such a situation would have demurred with a deft "I've read the Constitution."[1][2] I wonder what changed. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_preemption [2] https://nationalpolice.org/federal-supremacy-how-conflicting...

Sure, I am familiar.

The law prevents Colorado's agencies from sharing information with ICE, instead ICE uses LexisNexis.

This can lead to things like:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzalez_v._ICE

https://www.latimes.com/archives/story/2018-04-27/ice-held-a...

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#214

Post by disattention »

anon291 wrote: post #197
kevinh wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few days ago someone shot people while pretending to be a police officer. Someone impersonating ICE for kidnapping isn't out of the realm of possibility.

And a few days ago, some guy crossed a border with a young girl he passed off as his daughter when in reality he was a sex trafficker and going to sell the girl into sex slavery. Since we're all clutching our pearls, we might as well clutch all of them.

There seems to be a clear difference between criminals doing shady things and the government doing shady things. It seems like a false equivalency to compare an incident where a random guy does something terrible to one where law enforcement is rapturing people into the night while wearing masks.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#215

Post by acdha »

lmm wrote: post #207
acdha wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You appear to be arguing that law enforcement focusing on dangers to their communities and not doing someone else’s job instead is bad. It’s exactly hard to find examples of cops who investigated real crimes and pulled ICE in when they realized the perp wasn’t here legally.

> You appear to be arguing that law enforcement focusing on dangers to their communities and not doing someone else’s job instead is bad. Deprioritising lawlessness against the will of the electorate is bad enough, but I'm talking about deliberate noncooperation policies, e.g. the California sanctuary laws. That's going much further than "focusing on" other things.

> Deprioritising lawlessness against the will of the electorate is bad enough

You’re arguing that your personal opinion is “the will of the electorate”. The policies directing local police to focus on crime affecting their communities instead of shadowing federal immigration enforcement weren’t imposed by an aliens, they were enacted by democratically elected representatives.

California’s sanctuary laws are the subject of considerable mythology but they had no effect on crime rates according to actual studies because they don’t prohibit cops from working with law enforcement for cases involving people who pose a risk to their communities. They can’t hold people without cause or use a parking ticket to get someone deported but there’s no problem cooperating with federal law enforcement to get rid of a robber, killer, rapist, etc. – the kind of people most of the electorate want enforcement focused on, not gardeners and farm workers.

https://calmatters.org/justice/2025/01/california-sanctuary-...

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#216

Post by acdha »

timr wrote: post #182
kevinh wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few days ago someone shot people while pretending to be a police officer. Someone impersonating ICE for kidnapping isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Right. So your logic is: because someone, somewhere, once did something illegal while dressed as a police officer , we should interfere with every arrest, everywhere, because they might be fake police? Or are you just restricting this logic to plainclothes officers, who aren't wearing uniforms at all?

The argument being offered is that if the police follow the law, the problem goes away and there’s no impact on legitimate law enforcement activity.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#217

Post by ensignavenger »

disattention wrote: post #211
ensignavenger wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were wearing uniforms, I watched the video. Badges were not clearly visible in the video, but they certainly had uniforms.

Anyone can literally just buy/make a uniform. Especially concerning if badges aren't visible. This argument doesn't hold much water imo.

Perhaps, but the comment I was replying to was claiming "not wearing uniforms" which isn't what was going on. I have no idea if badges were displayed at any point, but this was a federal courthouse, one would hope that they would be asking for identification. It should also be noted that according to the article, NYPD was present at the time.

I don't think, given the facts I currently have, that claiming he didn't know they were real ICE agents is going to hold much water.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#218

Post by acdha »

apparent wrote: post #183
kevinh wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few days ago someone shot people while pretending to be a police officer. Someone impersonating ICE for kidnapping isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Yes, and a few days ago some "peacekeepers" in UT tried to shoot someone whom they perceived to be a threat, and ended up shooting and killing a bystander nearby. Situations are complicated, and assuming you know what's going on, and that you can help, is presumptuous.

That argument works better against the position: things which create confusion increase the odds of serious problems. Reducing uncertainty by having clear rules makes it safer for everyone: that “good guy with a gun” is far more likely to be involved in a tragic mistake not because they have any desire to be but because it’s a snap judgement with limited information and bystanders. Armed paramilitaries abducting people in a manner indistinguishable from a cartel kidnapping or police impersonation is dramatically increasing the risk to those officers snd everyone nearby for the same reason, and they’re not doing anything they couldn’t do without following the law with identification, serving legal warrants, etc.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#219

Post by acdha »

anon291 wrote: post #197
kevinh wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few days ago someone shot people while pretending to be a police officer. Someone impersonating ICE for kidnapping isn't out of the realm of possibility.

And a few days ago, some guy crossed a border with a young girl he passed off as his daughter when in reality he was a sex trafficker and going to sell the girl into sex slavery. Since we're all clutching our pearls, we might as well clutch all of them.

The difference is that nobody is defending that guy, whereas misconduct by these officers is being defended by some people as a political tactic. There is no conflict in saying both things are bad, and indeed we teach kindergarteners that two wrongs don't make a right.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#220

Post by lmm »

acdha wrote: post #215
lmm wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You appear to be arguing that law enforcement focusing on dangers to their communities and not doing someone else’s job instead is bad. Deprioritising lawlessness against the will of the electorate is bad enough, but I'm talking about deliberate noncooperation policies, e.g. the California sanctuary laws. That's going much further than "focusing on" other things.

> Deprioritising lawlessness against the will of the electorate is bad enough You’re arguing that your personal opinion is “the will of the electorate”. The policies directing local police to focus on crime affecting their communities instead of shadowing federal immigration enforcement weren’t imposed by an aliens, they were enacted by democratically elected representatives. California’s sanctuary laws are the subje…

> weren’t imposed by an aliens, they were enacted by democratically elected representatives

Elected at the state level, sure. But it was against the will of the national electorate and they knew it. Democracy means going along with popular decisions even if you disagree, not finding tricks to undermine what was nationally agreed because your corner of the country doesn't like it.

> the kind of people most of the electorate want enforcement focused on, not gardeners and farm workers.

Most of the electorate wants all illegal immigrants deported, not just the ones caught committing violent crimes.

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