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Upcoming Windows 11 builds cannot install without internet and Microsoft Account

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Re: Upcoming Windows 11 builds cannot install without internet and Microsoft Account

#211

Post by lcnPylGDnU4H9OF »

tmikaeld wrote: post #116
eru wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apropos, running Steam on my Archlinux Desktop with Windows compatibility turned on works really, really well. Much better than what I remembered from the bad old days of trying to get stuff running in Wine.

I second that, everything "just works" as you'd expect it to. If StreamOS can get widespread and they start to introduce desktop apps to the store, I think they can take some market share.

> everything "just works"

Just a note to readers who are interested in this: some games in your Steam library may still not work with Proton, but the ones that do work should have rather few issues. (I play exclusively on a Steam Deck so “should” is in reference to the variance in hardware among bespoke machines.)

Re: Upcoming Windows 11 builds cannot install without internet and Microsoft Account

#212

Post by hilbert42 »

JFingleton wrote: post #95
sshine wrote: post #17

Windows is the first thing that gets deleted on a new PC. An acquaintance of mine works for Microsoft. Every time I meet him, he always tells me how much money hey makes. I'm sure it's double of what I earn when I have a good year. A big part of me wants to earn that money, too. But an unwavering part of me knows, I could never work for Microsoft. At this point it is not just bitterness from their anti-Linux, anti-FO…

The thing is, Microsoft does make good software: Excel, Visual Studio, VSCode, Xbox. I don't believe the problem is the engineers, the leadership of Windows fails to understand what the OS is meant for: getting out of the way so you can access the apps.

"OS is meant for: getting out of the way so you can access the apps."

When I first got into computers an operating system was primarily known as a file-loader — a way or mechanism to load one's apps. Take CP/M as an example.

Re: Upcoming Windows 11 builds cannot install without internet and Microsoft Account

#213

Post by bitwize »

samiv wrote: post #45

I'm also 100% convinced Microsoft will introduce mandatory code signing at some point and make it so that you can only ever install software from Windows Store. They are envious of the Google and Apple walled gardens/cashcows and are now determined to turn Windows into one. Windows is no longer a product for users, the users of Windows are the product for Microsoft to be shoved into the Azure sales funnel.

This is likely why the TPM2 requirement is a thing for Windows 11: Microsoft wants to migrate all Windows users onto a hardware base with nigh-uncrackable security/DRM protection, such that everything from power on to application is signed, approved code. For "security".

And people will buy it. Because "general purpose computing" is a niche feature for nerds. (Astronaut 2: Always has been.) And it presents enough problems and extra work that most consumers woyld gladly give it up. Most consumers just want something thet can do Facebook/Excel/Spotify/Netflix/games with.

Re: Upcoming Windows 11 builds cannot install without internet and Microsoft Account

#214

Post by extraduder_ire »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #111
facile3232 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are envious of the Google and Apple walled gardens/cashcows and are now determined to turn Windows into one. Which is perplexing, because this is essentially the opposite strategy than what gave windows value to begin with.

It would be amusing for Microsoft to end up in a situation where developers don’t want to target Windows anymore, just like Apple in the 90’s. Perhaps they think it doesn’t matter once everything is in the cloud.

I think that long before that developers will still be targeting the windows APIs, even if they're not intending their software for windows.

Re: Upcoming Windows 11 builds cannot install without internet and Microsoft Account

#215

Post by signal11 »

samiv wrote: post #45

I'm also 100% convinced Microsoft will introduce mandatory code signing at some point and make it so that you can only ever install software from Windows Store. They are envious of the Google and Apple walled gardens/cashcows and are now determined to turn Windows into one. Windows is no longer a product for users, the users of Windows are the product for Microsoft to be shoved into the Azure sales funnel.

This misses how Microsoft makes money from Windows. Taking a cut of apps isn’t that useful because most people don’t install many apps. Of course it’s still welcome revenue, especially for games, but Steam has too much goodwill there, and Epic won’t still idly by (and Adobe etc in other domains).

Instead Microsoft is trying to upsell cloud storage, backup and ad-free email (along with Office apps) with Microsoft 365. And on the biz side they’re getting into the biz of offering managed patched online Windows VDIs, kind of like Citrix.

Also Microsoft Store-only Windows is a deal killer for Windows in businesses. A lot of specialised LOB (line of business) apps run on Windows and the Store is a non-starter for those. And in home contexts there’s a bunch of legacy apps that people keep Windows for, dropping support for them will mean switching to ChromeOS or macOS just got easier.

So yeah — I fully agree they’ll absolutely shove you in into the Azure or M365 sales funnel, and individual users no longer feel like a priority. But non-store apps aren’t quite dead yet.

Re: Upcoming Windows 11 builds cannot install without internet and Microsoft Account

#216

Post by briHass »

Managing Windows devices at work using the online-first paradigm makes it clear what MS is trying to achieve here, but it's poorly communicated, as usual. In the M365/Entra world, the big benefit is having cloud Active Directory (Entra/AzureAD) and automated deployment (Intune/Autopilot) all integrated. For home users, you get bits and pieces of this, but it feels unnecessarily limited.

What MS wants (from a charitable interpretation), is the ability to encourage/enforce full disk encryption (Bitlocker), TPM-based MFA and TPM-backed passkeys (Windows Hello), as well as tight integration with their product suite (Office/OneDrive) and browser (Edge). Syncing settings, apps and other things between devices (or on setup) is also a win, though it's pretty basic right now.

Though silly to a technical crowd like HN, FDE for regular users requires a way to not lose all their data if they forget their password or some other issue happens with secure boot or the device. Non-technical users aren't going to understand the importance of backing up their Bitlocker recovery key, and without it, they're hosed. During online setup, MS stores this key online to the MS account, so it is recoverable.

MS isn't going to limit the integration and security they can provide by adhering to a local-only OS concept. It's not what most users actually want, and their competition (Apple, Android) does the same thing, so users are used to it. I just wish they had a light (inexpensive) version of the Entra/Intune package for home users that want to be able to manage multiple devices and get the real advantages of the online link.

Re: Upcoming Windows 11 builds cannot install without internet and Microsoft Account

#217

Post by erikerikson »

consp wrote: post #127
eru wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apropos, running Steam on my Archlinux Desktop with Windows compatibility turned on works really, really well. Much better than what I remembered from the bad old days of trying to get stuff running in Wine.

Wine and it's alternatives have greatly profited from valve going this route and as a result all software runs better. It's a gradual improvement over time and we are past the early stages. I'm still running a gaming PC on windows but that is going to end quite soon if Microsoft keeps doing these things.

Stream actually paid for contributions to Wine if I understand correctly.

I too planning to use a gaming centric distro for my next gaming PC build. The horseshit they've been pushing at me on 10 has been atrocious. The lie that 10 would be the last. Injecting pages into Chrome. Windows acts more and more like literal malware.

Re: Upcoming Windows 11 builds cannot install without internet and Microsoft Account

#218

Post by erikerikson »

throwaway48476 wrote: post #164
samiv wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, the technology is already there. Just a question of time before they flip the switch for good and force it down everyone's throat and call it "enhanced security and user experience".

Windows S failed hard so they have a new strategy. Every new CPU ships with M$'s Pluton root of trust. For 'security' everything will have to be signed. They consider the user to be the threat actor. Eventually they will charge a percsnt fee for using their signing service.

Have you met my mother in law? She really is.

Re: Upcoming Windows 11 builds cannot install without internet and Microsoft Account

#219

Post by disqard »

khaledh wrote: post #119

Microsoft knew they were losing the client device market to iPhone and Android (after their Windows Phone flopped). So they essentially gave up on improving Windows, and decided to turn it into a thin client for Microsoft cloud services. For this model to work well, they need to force users to have a stable identification, aka Microsoft account, in order to login to the thin client. Windows is over. I moved to Apple…

I don't know why you were downvoted.

This really appears to be the simplest explanation -- turn every desktop into a thin client, served by walled-garden apps, and with Azure integration/dependencies.

Then charge subscription fees to turn all computer owners into renters. Oh, and show ads too, while you're at it.

Re: Upcoming Windows 11 builds cannot install without internet and Microsoft Account

#220

Post by bitwize »

grishka wrote: post #145
samiv wrote: post #45

I'm also 100% convinced Microsoft will introduce mandatory code signing at some point and make it so that you can only ever install software from Windows Store. They are envious of the Google and Apple walled gardens/cashcows and are now determined to turn Windows into one. Windows is no longer a product for users, the users of Windows are the product for Microsoft to be shoved into the Azure sales funnel.

Mandatory code signing is meaningless without secure boot though, which can't be made mandatory on x86 systems.

Who decided that secure boot can't be made mandatory on x86 systems?

Microsoft.

They can reverse their decision at any time. Inasmuch as you are able to boot Linux on your PC, it's only because Microsoft deigns to allow it.

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