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The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

daringfireball.net

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Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#211

Post by robenkleene »

llm_nerd wrote: post #111
graeme wrote: post #16

It's certainly possible there's a backend flag on the site. But from the comments I see on Reddit, I suspect there may be a simpler explanation: a lot of people for some reason really dislike John Gruber and view him as someone who slavishly praises Apple. I'm a big John Gruber fan, and I don't think this is true in the slightest. I think he thinks carefully, forms his own opinions, and is very willing to intensely c…

>I'm a big John Gruber fan Which is the problem and why I would guess that there is an automatic downranking to the domain, and why many knee-jerk flag entries from the site. Not that you specifically are a fan, but that a big enough minority of HN users would describe themselves as such and would submit and upvote entries from the site. The bulk of DF entries could best be described as opinion/my-take type content.…

> Opinions generally do poorly here, for good reason. It is the junk food of content. It's easy and entertaining to read, especially if it agrees with our own notions so it's self-assuring, and if I think Apple are great I love to read opinions on why the EU are wrong with their DMA push, etc.

This perspective on opinions doesn't seem accurate to me, e.g., opinion pieces (especially favorable) on Emacs, Neovim, and Blender seem to do really well here. I also disagree with the junk food characterization, I think people taking a strong stance on why they like something is often really valuable.

> There is another comment that opines that they want to see more daringfireball content on HN. I mean, they could just visit his site, or they could just hit https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=daringfireball.net, but what they really seem to mean is that they want everyone else to see more content from DF.

For the record, I personally share things here when I think they're worth discussing, i.e., it isn't because I want people to see something, it's because I want them to talk about it.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#213

Post by graeme »

alsetmusic wrote: post #170
graeme wrote: post #16

It's certainly possible there's a backend flag on the site. But from the comments I see on Reddit, I suspect there may be a simpler explanation: a lot of people for some reason really dislike John Gruber and view him as someone who slavishly praises Apple. I'm a big John Gruber fan, and I don't think this is true in the slightest. I think he thinks carefully, forms his own opinions, and is very willing to intensely c…

> But overall the algorithm has kept HN an interesting place. Any good moderation policy has side effects and tradeoffs. I don’t think so. From his follow-up: > My thesis is that the above might once have been an accurate summary of how Hacker News functions, but hasn’t been for years, and that there now exists a cabal of moderator/admins with their thumbs on the scale, and their personal predilections are the primar…

He cited the mod guidelines, which include:

>Other factors affecting rank include user flags, anti-abuse software, software which demotes overheated discussions, account or site weighting, and moderator action.

It's very plausible to me that there IS a negative site weighting to DF. But that it might come from the aggregate history of flags or angry/contentious comments posted on DF articles.

It certainly could be a personal moderator thumb on the scale, but at the scale of HN I'd expect they have some automated formula for site weighting based on the other factors mentioned.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#215

Post by JohnBooty »

proline wrote: post #190
jgruber wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How then do you explain DF being #3 from 2007-2021 and #72 from 2021-2025? It’s clearly not blacklisted, but clearly is shitlisted, no?

Have you looked into how much of DF was about Apple and how much was about Donald Trump during the affected time periods? It seems that you write about tech a lot less and politics a lot more. Which is fine, it's your blog! But don't expect tech enthusiasts to automatically be interested in your opinion on immigration or whatever.

Have you looked into the linked article? That's not what gruber is questioning.

1. Obviously, a political article on DF is a poor fit

2. But DF's non-political articles are also seemingly pooplisted, even ones that are clearly relevant to HN's audience

3. There have been quite a few political articles from other sites that have gotten traction on DF without being pooplisted

yeah I dunno it doesn't add up to me. i'm not saying it's a conspiracy or anything. perhaps it is just users flagging his articles and not some concerted moderator action.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#216

Post by JohnBooty »

graeme wrote: post #16

It's certainly possible there's a backend flag on the site. But from the comments I see on Reddit, I suspect there may be a simpler explanation: a lot of people for some reason really dislike John Gruber and view him as someone who slavishly praises Apple. I'm a big John Gruber fan, and I don't think this is true in the slightest. I think he thinks carefully, forms his own opinions, and is very willing to intensely c…

    I suspect there may be a simpler explanation: 
    a lot of people for some reason really dislike 
    John Gruber and view him as someone who slavishly 
    praises Apple.
This is most definitely true but he, and Apple, have always been very polarizing. I don't think either one has become more polarizing? And if so, certainly not in some extremely sudden way that would explain DF's popularity on HN falling off of a cliff.

HN's crowd has changed since its inception, but again, not in some really abrupt way.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#217

Post by proline »

owebmaster wrote: post #202
robenkleene wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the most sympathetic way to state your position? E.g., I'm struggling with "I'm angry because I can't make money off of iPhone users the way I want to" that just doesn't sound sympathetic to me? Does it to you? (This may just be a conflict of values again, i.e., it sounds entitled to me to want to have equal access to sell your products to all smartphone users, regardless of their choices, that sounds super in…

Why do you think criticizing Apple's predatory strategies comes from hate? Do you hate everything you think it is bad? The sympathetic way is to not take disagreement as hate. Why do you hate people that dislike Apple's way of doing business? Do you hate everybody that dislike things you love? About Nintendo, I don't develop games nor play them, I couldn't care less about what the market leaders do.

As an Apple user, I'm happy with the gatekeeping, it's why I use their products, and frankly I want more of it. If it was up to me I'd like to see them enforcing their human interface guidelines a lot more.

Why can't you just develop for Android or Palm or Windows and be happy while leaving us alone to enjoy what we like? Can you at least appreciate the irony of calling Apple greedy when your main beef is they get in the way of you making money?

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#218

Post by toasterlovin »

apple4ever wrote: post #210
toasterlovin wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this explanation. There is a sizable contingent of commenters on here who are just extremely negative on everything Apple. I read most of the big Apple threads and they're just overwhelmingly negative toward the company and, honestly, not very thoughtful. I think this has been a developing trend since I've been on HN. Since Gruber is coming at things from a pro-Apple, but nuanced place, I'm not at all su…

That's possible, but the problem is his take on Apple's customer unfriendly policies is not nuanced at all.

That’s exactly a topic that I think HN is collectively unhinged about, so I don’t even bother commenting. But I spend a lot of money with Apple and I like everything about their ecosystem, especially the locked down, Disneyland-esque sterile experience on my phone.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#219

Post by ace8cjc »

Likely Occam’s razor here. The answer is simple enough that Gruber even states it in his blog, writing:

> But if you look at the last four years, from 2021 through 2025, Daring Fireball ranks #72.

> Maybe I’ve lost my fastball, and I just don’t write so good no more. Or maybe it’s not me, but the Hacker News audience that has changed in recent years.

The last four years are the outlier to his popularity on HN, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that DF posted a lot of politically-charged takes during this timeframe, including opinions about covid, vax mandates, Ukraine, Israel/Palestine, Elon, and Trump.

I suspect his takes frustrated many of his long-term readers, leading to less sharing and more flagging on HN - maybe by users with more influence - coupled with the site’s opaque algorithms/weightings picking up on the negative sentiment.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#220

Post by yowzadave »

steveBK123 wrote: post #196
robenkleene wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can anyone name another company that has something similar to a "non-Apple tribe"? And if not, why not? Which is really the question I can't figure out, why Apple makes some folks so angry and the same doesn't happen with other companies. (Preempting the only example I can think of, would be Internet Explorer, circa ~2000, which isn't really comparable because no one was defending IE then.)

Tesla? TikTok? Meta?

Meta is a funny one, because there doesn't really seem to be a "pro-Meta" contingent. They have lots of users, but not a lot of people who feel warmly about them as a company.
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