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Europe bets once again on RISC-V for supercomputing

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Re: Europe bets once again on RISC-V for supercomputing

#211

Post by cynusx »

mahkeiro wrote: post #111
happymellon wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because RISC V results would be something the Europeans could produce? We are reliant on the US as only 2 companies can make the x86/64 chips. I don't think Europe would be completely against working with a US or Chinese company like Hi Five/Star Five, as long as we weren't dependent on them, and could pull ties if they abused their position of control.

STmicro is producing chips at around 14-18nm. ASML is the one producing the leading lithography machine, and we are not talking about ARM, Infineon or NXP. Europe has the capacity to produce their own processors if needed.

Exactly, it's just that producing them in the EU is a lot more expensive.

On this, Trump's policy of putting tariffs on chips manufactured in Taiwan makes sense to make it worthwhile to put the fabs in Europe.

Re: Europe bets once again on RISC-V for supercomputing

#212

Post by dgellow »

TiredOfLife wrote: post #207
dgellow wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is extremely chaotic and unpredictable. China is fairly stable and predictable.

Stable and predictable in supporting russian invasion in Europe.

It took 3 months for the US to shift from actively supporting Ukraine’s defense to actively undermining it. China is more ambiguous, with a neutral stance, the US is now actively going against Ukraine and Europe’s interests by siding with Putin.

So if you have a choice between a schizophrenic, antagonistic US, and a China who doesn’t care much about human rights but wants to keep stable international trade relationships, I’m really not shocked if you pick the later

Re: Europe bets once again on RISC-V for supercomputing

#213

Post by cynusx »

dgellow wrote: post #41
briandear wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the goal is to decouple from the U.S., why would the EU want to collaborate with a totalitarian state like China?

The US is extremely chaotic and unpredictable. China is fairly stable and predictable.

It would be a mistake to work with China for several reasons.

The EU needs to be in a position where it can decide what is best for Europeans and not be strong-armed or overly dependent on allies that clearly don't share the same concern.

Re: Europe bets once again on RISC-V for supercomputing

#214

Post by cynusx »

MaxPock wrote: post #151
briandear wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the goal is to decouple from the U.S., why would the EU want to collaborate with a totalitarian state like China?

EU is friends with totalitarian states like Bahrain,Syria, Qatar and Saudi Arabia.What's wrong with working with another totalitarian state ?

Friends is a big word, the EU has a vested interest in getting cheap gas from as many sources as possible at this point and a direct oil and gas pipeline to Europe would definitely be helpful.

Russian presence in Syria prevented this but they're gone now.

In the future we can balance Russian cheap gas with Qatari cheap gas to not be held hostage by either party.

It would be a mistake to build dependencies on China when it's possible to avoid having dependencies at all.

Re: Europe bets once again on RISC-V for supercomputing

#215

Post by p0w3n3d »

When I read

> Europe bets on supercomputing sovereignty

I'm laughing and dying inside. Europe has forfeited all possibilities on creating their own chips, partially because of production regime, partially because we were never good in this subject. At the moment the war is already lost (yes, I consider any negotiation for resources a war, whether in law creation or in movement of forces). Therefore, we're condemned to rely on China's supplies, and chips supplied by China will have this

https://www.techspot.com/news/107073-researchers-uncover-hid...

which defies idea of sovereignty at all.

Re: Europe bets once again on RISC-V for supercomputing

#216

Post by suraci »

p0w3n3d wrote: post #215

When I read > Europe bets on supercomputing sovereignty I'm laughing and dying inside. Europe has forfeited all possibilities on creating their own chips, partially because of production regime, partially because we were never good in this subject. At the moment the war is already lost (yes, I consider any negotiation for resources a war, whether in law creation or in movement of forces). Therefore, we're condemned t…

> At the moment the war is already lost

the war against whom?

Re: Europe bets once again on RISC-V for supercomputing

#217

Post by genewitch »

bluebarbet wrote: post #169
hagbard_c wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most authoritarian states are 'stable and predictable'. When you meet a lion on the savannah the beast is stable and predictable in that it will most likely try to eat you unless it isn't hungry. Step on a snake and the outcome is stable and predictable in that you will get bitten. It is good for Europe to learn to stand on its - our - own legs, to become less dependent on the USA for territorial defence and probably…

You're going well off-topic here and into inflammatory territory. This whole debate should probably best happen somewhere else. But just one thing: while I personally share your take on the political and societal issues, I do think it's unfortunate that you lump "climate" in there, in scare quotes. The climate issue is informed by hard science. America's tendency to politicize everything will have terrible outcomes i…

you say the climate is decided by hard science. You mean the models say it's decided, right?

I just want to be clear what you mean by hard science.

Re: Europe bets once again on RISC-V for supercomputing

#218

Post by p0w3n3d »

suraci wrote: post #216
p0w3n3d wrote: post #215

When I read > Europe bets on supercomputing sovereignty I'm laughing and dying inside. Europe has forfeited all possibilities on creating their own chips, partially because of production regime, partially because we were never good in this subject. At the moment the war is already lost (yes, I consider any negotiation for resources a war, whether in law creation or in movement of forces). Therefore, we're condemned t…

> At the moment the war is already lost the war against whom?

Let's make a thought exercise: Imagine Europe must, for some reason,s impose duties on anything from China. Like Europe says, 'Hey, you're burning too much coal, I will stop your cars with my tariffs.' China says, 'Okay, I will put duties on the parts, chips and batteries you're buying from me.' Now, Europe won't be able to produce any cars anymore. We've seen this already when COVID-19 stopped car production in the EU.

And chips are everywhere. Hence, the EU is dependent on China. Q.E.D.

Or maybe I am mistaken. Please tell me what you think regarding the above.

Re: Europe bets once again on RISC-V for supercomputing

#219

Post by tsukikage »

Y_Y wrote: post #162
tsukikage wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was in the EU when ARM started as well, fwiw.

The EU was established in 1993. Arm was founded in 1990. For that matter the UK is composed of islands and parts thereof and nothing in "continental Europe", a term which refers to just the contiguous landmass. (Gibraltar is owned by the UK, but not part of it.) Luckily Europe is not defined by the EU or sea levels, and the UK is very much in Europe the continent.

Technically true, which as we all know is the best kind of true. Note, however:

“The United Kingdom (along with the British Overseas Territory of Gibraltar) was a member state of the European Union (EU) and of its predecessor the European Communities (EC) – principally the European Economic Community (EEC) – from 1 January 1973 until 31 January 2020.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_membership_of_t...

Compare the start of this subthread: “Didn't ARM start in Europe?”

Whatever point it is that subsequent responders were trying to score by mentioning continental europe is moot: Britain was part of Europe in more ways than merely its location.

Re: Europe bets once again on RISC-V for supercomputing

#220

Post by Teever »

thomasahle wrote: post #141
tw04 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ignore the military ambitions of China and the fact they’re openly sharing technology with Russia, perhaps. I don’t see anything but regret for Europe several decades from now if they decide to start providing China with the technical expertise they’re currently lacking in this space. This is all about China trying to find a way to escape the pressure of sanctions from Europe and the US.

The EU has to start working more with China, for better or worse. Not as friends or allies, but there aren't a lot of those left anyway. It's only rational in this multi polar world to have some level of engagement with all parties. Most of the sanctions Europe have on China were just to please the US anyway.

Why is it in the interest of the EU to work with an entity that doesn't condone concepts like democracy, due process, or the rule of law?

Shouldn't it be the mandate of liberal democracies to enable liberal democracies and to prevent authoritarian entities from growing power and reach?

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