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Should managers still code?

theengineeringmanager.substack.com

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Re: Should managers still code?

#211
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t need to be writing code. But it’s a convenient shortcut to a great many things that otherwise take dedicated effort to understand. Some managers will do that. Most won’t. Given that, it’s easier to just tell them all to code.

Or just tell them all to regularly communicate/listen to their team? Sounds way more efficient.

If a manager communicated with and listened to their team, but their team had written a web service with gaping security holes or disastrous data integrity practices because all their senior engineers were incompetent and/or were hired at a level that was above their ability, would that manager find out just from chatting with them?

I promise you that it's not guaranteed. You need to actually go looking through the code to find everything that's wrong.

Re: Should managers still code?

#212
Ex-Dropbox manager here. I also built BetterHelp (sorry) and I was the VP of Engineering Grooveshark.

Dropbox was the first job I've had where managers are not expected to code although they still go through a small ramp up where they can fix a tiny bug or make a hello world commit and deploy it to production to show that they understand how some of the systems work. Due to some crazy circumstances with the team I took over, I never even got to go through the ramp up. I was thrown straight into the deep end leading a team dealing with an urgent crisis that could end the business.

It was scary as hell, going from what in hindsight had been a "TLM with extra responsibilities" in my previous jobs to a full fledged EM role with all of the same accountability for quality and timely production, but none of the direct control. But I quickly realized that I was surrounded by people who were at least as capable as I was and usually more brilliant.

I think my greatest technical strength was always in eliminating technical complexity, making systems more robust and maintainable. It turns out you can still spot the blinking red lights of unnecessary complexity just by talking about the systems from a high level and asking the right questions, and when you help other talented engineers see those problems, they will naturally want to fix them. No need to jump in and do it yourself.

Once I knew I had a team I could trust and understood the strengths of the different players, I had to shift my focus to learning how to be a real manager. Managing people is a wildly different skillset than writing good code or building a good product, and I realized that I had never really been a manager despite leading teams of people. My apologies to everyone who ever worked for me before this point. Without realizing it, I had always treated the human factor as an annoyance and I probably hindered the growth of past teams a lot by stepping in and doing the high stakes, high urgency stuff myself.

When folks grew under me, especially at Grooveshark when I was young and immature, it was a happy accident and not something I was very intentional about. At Dropbox I really learned the importance of investing in people, giving them opportunities to grow and creating space to allow them to make mistakes. I didn't touch a line of Dropbox code or ever commit a thing, but my teams were high impact and many of the engineers who worked with me told me I was the best manager they've had.

Now I'm a co-founder at my own startup and, of course, I'm writing code again. Yeah, I'm a little rusty with some of the language specifics but I've been talking to brilliant engineers about their work for the last 7 years, when it comes to robust system design I'm probably a better engineer than I was the last time I wrote production code that was used by tens of millions of users. I will of course be in the hybrid role of building and managing folks for a while, but I hope I can keep my manager chops honed and support my team properly as I build and grow it and, eventually, stop writing production code again.

Re: Should managers still code?

#213

I cant work for someone who doesn't understand what I do. An unused sword rusts in its sheathe. I remember working for a gent years ago, who was stressed out that my output was so low. He declared "I started this business in my living room let me show you I can do any job in this building" He came to my workspace, where I had 20 servers stacked on my workbench. He looked at them. Attached a single power cord. And the…

> I cant work for someone who doesn't understand what I do. But you already do. Unless you're working for a tiny startup, your CEO or the Board probably doesn't understand the specifics of your code. You can't run a large company by making every person super-involved in every detail. You have layers of abstraction that make it possible to reason about an org of hundreds or thousands of employees. The Board trusts the…

For the sake of argument, a company could be structured such that your boss knows what you do and their boss knows what they do but not necessarily what you do.

Re: Should managers still code?

#214

No. The amount of work that a manager has to handle to do their job right is incompatible with coding at a professional rate. If you have a manager that codes, then they won't have (enough) time to: - Write and design your packets (if in a corporation), or your career path (if in a smaller company) - Align with other teams, get consensus, shield you from politics beyond your level. - Make long term planning and makin…

If you can't make a half-day of time once a quarter to fix a bug or make a minor UI change, then I would argue that you are wilfully avoiding doing it, and that some introspection as to why you are avoiding it would be helpful.

Is your environment too complicated to set up? Is the process of deploying something too onerous, and you'll still be trying to get it into production by this time next week? Do you not have any easy bugs to work on, and is that because they all get fixed or just because nobody's recording and triaging them? Is your tech stack too complicated for an infrequent contributor to understand?

These are all really important things to know! And you would know them if you tried to write some code! Any code at all, written at any frequency less than a year apart, would help understand your team.

Re: Should managers still code?

#215
post #37

Strong yes for 3 reasons 1. Reducing dev friction. When I had managers who coded they were ruthless about removing friction in the dev and deployment pipeline because they had to deal with it too. If build times went up, deployment infrastructure broke or someone’s PR broke dev they would roll it back immediately. If someone consistently blocks PRs the manager noticed the trend and would address it. 2. You get a much…

I think every team needs a TL. If the EM isn't filling that role, then another team member should be, and most of what you're talking about falls on the TL (with some sanity checking from the EM by talking to other team members about these things as well)

Re: Should managers still code?

#216

I cant work for someone who doesn't understand what I do. An unused sword rusts in its sheathe. I remember working for a gent years ago, who was stressed out that my output was so low. He declared "I started this business in my living room let me show you I can do any job in this building" He came to my workspace, where I had 20 servers stacked on my workbench. He looked at them. Attached a single power cord. And the…

I guess I don't get what's objectionable about working for someone who doesn't understand how you do what you do. Isn't what matters being appreciated? I certainly can't work for someone who doesn't value what I do, but I can care less whether they actually understand how I do it.

I guess it depends on the perspective, and the attitudes of those above you towards your work. If people and product managers are showing deference to your team's expertise in this knowledge domain (whatever it may be), then that's good, and I don't think anyone here is going to complain about that working relationship.

Where folks get objectionable (myself included) is when those same managers conflate superior rank with superior knowledge. It's the CIO demanding we use a specific product suite without objective justification, or the SVP forcing a given architecture because it suits their political objectives rather than organizational ones. That's presently on the rise as tech companies (in particular) bring in "outside talent" (aka, the same failed-upwards managers and leaders of unrelated enterprises in their social circles) instead of promoting from within or hiring qualified candidates, and it results in a whole host of grievances and problems that can rot the org from the inside out.

The clue is the rise of these sorts of posts, trying to coach us on how to step into leadership roles and transition from Individual Contributors to People or Product Managers instead. The takeaway I got was less "managers shouldn't code", and more "managers should not assume their code is better or necessary just because they're managers"; in other words, to strike a balance.

Re: Should managers still code?

#218
post #167
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> your bottleneck really is just writing more code You're characterising it as pure "code volume" question but it's completely not the point. Absolutely if they are coding just to directly increase the output of the team they are much better devoting that time to getting more output from the IC's they are managing. But even better is coding in a way that helps the team overall work better . This can be because they d…

Yep, there's definitely a way to write code intentionally, for the reasons you listed, and I approve of that! But you'll see a lot of engineering managers coding because they are trying to help the team reach its next deliverable. This is usually short-sighted. I think of it as the management control loop: "I have some spare cycles -> what is the most important work I can do for the team right now?" Coding can be the…

No idea where these guys work where they can just roll up their sleeves and start coding. I would love to help out but there is zero time for me to code.

Re: Should managers still code?

#219
It should be mandatory they code a bit. It should also be mandatory they don't code too much. This may not have been true in the past but times have changed in my 40 years as a programmer.

Re: Should managers still code?

#220
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cant work for someone who doesn't understand what I do. But you already do. Unless you're working for a tiny startup, your CEO or the Board probably doesn't understand the specifics of your code. You can't run a large company by making every person super-involved in every detail. You have layers of abstraction that make it possible to reason about an org of hundreds or thousands of employees. The Board trusts the…

For the sake of argument, a company could be structured such that your boss knows what you do and their boss knows what they do but not necessarily what you do.

There are a lot of jobs where the bosses bosses boss does know the job as that’s where they started.

Your post has an authoritative tone but is too reductive and dismisses the real world often working in a completely opposite way, so I’m not sure it’s a credible argument.

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