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U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

wsj.com

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Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#211

Post by 0rzech »

Wololooo wrote: post #106
0rzech wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right. And let's not forget that Europe and USA have been helping directly for a few years now anyway. It's really disappointing how much misinformation gets reiterated on the Internet with regards to this memorandum, given how short the document is and how easy it is to verify its contents oneself. PS. NATO's Article 5 is also worth a read. It does not guarantee what is commonly claimed.

Let's not go there. In the history of the Alliance there is only a single country that invoked article 5, and it was the US with 9/11 that lead to the United Kingdom, Canada, Germany, Australia, Italy, New Zealand to send resources and troops to help with Afghanistan. And managed to get people involved in Iraq namely United Kingdom, Australia, Poland. And this situation was way worse and way less called for than the…

> Let's not go there.

I genuinely don't know where's "there".

It is a fact, that NATO Article 5 doesn't guarantee anything regardless of other countries' response to USA triggering it, just as it is a fact, that the Budapest Memorandum was mischaracterized in this thread and that both the Europe and USA did help Ukraine. Should we not go where the facts are?

If you're about that the USA should continue helping Ukraine, then I did not question this point of view at all. Pointing out factual errors is not equal to taking a stance.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#212

Post by schroeding »

ty6853 wrote: post #200
schroeding wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If France had hold out until 1943, with the Wehrmacht only making a few hundred yards progress per day, it would have been a massive success, don't you agree? Without western help, Ukraine would have had no chance in hell to survive that long. It's the same logic the US applied to lend-lease, didn't they? There was a good chance of the USSR collapsing until 1943, and you still helped them. Delaying an invading attack…

Someone was coming to bail out France. I don't see a D day for Ukraine. If it is coming a European nation needs to step up right fuckin now and say it. If they lost (or break even, or occasionally even gain) a few hundred feet a day, forever, all the while their young males all go into a meat shredder that is their choice to make. I'd rather let American families use their earnings on their own problems and let Ukrai…

The US wasn't active part of the war until December 1941, though. For the first years, no boots on the ground were coming. And if Germany didn't declare war against the US, which they weren't forced to do by the tripartite pact, it's questionable they would have come at all (in 1944).

Doesn't Ukraine buy most of their heavy weapons from the US (... until now)? If so, isn't most of the tax payer money the US lends Ukraine going back into the US economy, softening the blow by a lot?

Did the (original) lend-lease act even hurt the US economy and US families? Or did it provide jobs and stimulate the US economy, cementing the role of the US as the military / industrial powerhouse they are today? I was under the impression that it's the latter, but I'm not sure, correct me if I'm wrong. Is this one different?

But sure, of course - that's the right of the US, even though it would be nicer not to retroactively break existing agreements. I only wanted to push back against the (new) lend-lease doing "absolutely nothing".

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#213

Post by ttoinou »

Gud wrote: post #122
csomar wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a petty tantrum though it might look like one. You have to consider that the incumbents have won the US elections, that's not a small feat. What many people are missing is that if the US main challenger is China and beating Russia is a far thing, then it makes sense for the US to ally with Russia against China. For that, the US might need to give Russia something (some EU countries?) for this hustle and als…

This makes no sense. Russia has the economy on parity with Italy.

[flagged]

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#214

Post by sterlind »

throwaway48476 wrote: post #107

Ukraine is just the beginning. The peace deal being negotiated includes NATO withdrawing to 1990 borders.

"Withdrawing" to 1990 borders? You mean expelling the states that joined after 1990? I'm not sure that would go over well with the Baltics, Romania, Sweden and Finland. Withdrawal from NATO is voluntary and cannot be compelled.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#215

Post by ratg13 »

bwb wrote: post #182
dgellow wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is 2-3 weeks, given how fast things are shifting

They are already drafting an end to sanctions, which is unbelievable.

Tarriff other countries and then establish a free trade agreement with Russia to boost their economy.

One wonders if they will make American packaging for their products, or just sell the Russian labeled products straight on US shelves.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#216

Post by DecoySalamander »

jesterson wrote: post #123
DidYaWipe wrote: post #88

The USA stands in miserable disgrace.

[flagged]

Putin's capacity to wage war is by no means unlimited. This war has the potential to bankrupt Russia (just look at its 21% key rate) and the US already has experience in pushing an adversary to collapse.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#217

Post by mrighele »

jesterson wrote: post #123
DidYaWipe wrote: post #88

The USA stands in miserable disgrace.

[flagged]

You are assuming that stopping the aid will stop the war. It won't, not soon at least.

Unless one of the two party wins the war, the way a peace agreement is reached is for both parties to consider it a better outcome than continuing the war, which means that the quickest way to reach is to make it harder for both countries to continue the war, and more palatable the result of an agreement.

This is not what Trump is doing. He is not doing harder for Russia to continue the war, in fact it is going to make it easier. He is not going to make the peace agreement more palatable for Ukraine, in fact it made it even harsher.

In other words, Trump is not looking for a "deal" is looking for a capitulation of Ukraine, and to offer it to Putin, probably behind some agreement.

Ukrainian people are not going to like the idea, so they will not surrender soon. Putin will see this as a victory, so he will not stop there (he is trying to get US troops out of Eastern Europe, and I am sure Trump will obey), so any "peace" will be short-lasting. Eastern Europe countries already see this, so they will not stop helping Ukraine because the US did.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#218

Post by roxolotl »

aemu wrote: post #210
bradhe wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazing to see Russia win the Cold War—one we didn’t even know we were in. Their propaganda network is so strong that it took 3 weeks to go from “Russia is the enemy” to “eh, we have other problems” amongst the folks who…subscribe accordingly. Absolute masterclass in projecting power in the digital age.

Yeah, man. I have emigrated from Russia to EU five years ago and it is heartbreaking to see the developed US and some European countries go through the same bullshit we were going since 2011. Like half the country starts living in wild, completely imaginary world, and you can always tell what is the current agenda of the propaganda machine just by talking to some relatives who fell through that rabbit hole

I agree it’s a huge disgrace and half of the US is living in a fantasy land. However polls show that Americans don’t like Putin. A poll two weeks ago[0] actually showed 81% of Americans do not trust Putin. Finding 81% agreement about anything is hard.

This is something that is unique to the administration and those who deeply agree with what it’s done.

Not that it matters… clearly people don’t care enough to vote for it. My heart goes out to the people of Ukraine.

0: https://thehill.com/policy/international/5153611-quinnipiac-...

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#219

Post by csomar »

ellis0n wrote: post #110
csomar wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No such a move only costs a few hundred dollars at most and maybe free if you are willing to rough it up with the truck drivers. The situation can only be complicated by immediate family members but still it's only a car rental or convincing somebody with a car to drive you there.

And what’s next? Sleep on the street? Rent is expensive, I’ve already tried and it’s impossible without any income. Sure, thanks for the advice, but I’ll need to work, not just travel. I need the same big monitor for work, a good chair, and usually these things aren’t available, so I end up working in terrible conditions.

I am not saying it's a solution to your housing but a solution not to get hurt or potentially "killed". I don't have a solution to any of them. I am just saying if you really believe your life/safety is at risk, you should move now regardless.

Re: U.S. pauses all military aid to Ukraine

#220

Post by csomar »

Gud wrote: post #136
almosthere wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't understand why people are telling people to leave ukraine. if that's the stance, then why not just let russia have it. If everyone left, then there's no war to be had?

Not everyone is fit to be a fighter.

It's easy to be a hero behind a keyboard.
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