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Chat is a bad UI pattern for development tools

danieldelaney.net

211–220 of 432 posts

Re: Chat is a bad UI pattern for development tools

#211

I'm going to take a contrarian view and say it's actually a good UI, but it's all about how you approach it. I just finished a small project where I used o3-mini and o3-mini-high to generate most of the code. I averaged around 200 lines of code an hour, including the business logic and unit tests. Total was around 2200 lines. So, not a big project, but not a throw away script. The code was perfectly fine for what we…

I agree with you.

Yesterday, I asked o3-mini to "optimize" a block of code. It produced very clean, functional TypeScript. However, because the code is reducing stock option chains, I then asked o3-mini to "optimize for speed." In the JavaScript world, this is usually done with for loops, and it even considered aspects like array memory allocation.

This shows that using the right qualifiers is important for getting the results you want. Today, I use both "optimize for developer experience" and "optimize for speed" when they are appropriate.

Although declarative code is just an abstraction, moving from imperative jQuery to declarative React was a major change in my coding experience. My work went from telling the system how to do something to simply telling it what to do. Of course, in React—especially at first—I had to explain how to do things, but only once to create a component. After that, I could just tell the system what to do. Now, I can simply declare the desired outcome, the what. It helps to understand how things work, but that level of detail is becoming less necessary.

Re: Chat is a bad UI pattern for development tools

#212
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find things get buried just as easily in email. People on my team are constantly resending each other emails, because they can’t find the thread. This is why, if something is important, I take it out of email and put it into a document people can reference. The latest and correct information from all the decisions in the thread can also be collected in one place, so everyone reading doesn’t have to figure it out. N…

> This is why, if something is important, I take it out of email and put it into a document people can reference. This is how things should be done, regardless of which medium is used to discuss the project. Without isolating and aggregating the final decision of each thread, there is no way to determine what everybody has agreed upon as the final product without looking back, which quickly becomes onerous. Things ge…

Lets toss in a minimum number of [digital] signatures.

Re: Chat is a bad UI pattern for development tools

#213
post #52

I'm growing to the idea that chat is a bad UI pattern, period. It is a great record of correspondence, I think. But it is a terrible UI for doing anything. In large, I assert this is because the best way to do something is to do that thing. There can be correspondence around the thing, but the artifacts that you are building are separate things. You could probably take this further and say that narrative is a terribl…

I disagree. Chat is a fantastic UI for getting an AI to generate something vague. Specifically I’m thinking of AI image generation. A chat UI is a great interface for iterating on an image and dialing it in over a series of iterations. The key here is that the AI model needs to keep context both of the image generation history and that chat history. I think this applies to any “fuzzy generation” scenario. It certainl…

> Specifically I’m thinking of AI image generation

I heavily disagree here, chat - or really text - is a horrible UI for image generation, unless you have almost zero idea of what you want to achieve and you don't really care about the final results.

Typing "make the bar a bit more like a fizzbuzz" in some textbox is awful UX compared to, say, clicking on the "bar" and selecting "fizzbuzz" or drag-and-dropping "fizzbuzz" on the "bar" or really anything that takes advantage of the fact we're interacting with a graphical environment to do work on graphics.

In fact it is a horrible UI for anything, except perhaps chatbots and tasks that have to do with text like grammar correction, altering writing styles, etc.

It is helpful for impressing people (especially people with money) though.

Re: Chat is a bad UI pattern for development tools

#214
That's also why AGI as defined today is an interface problem. Imagine we've actually achieved it, and the interface is a chat prompt. It will be really hard to differentiate it with the current tools we have.

For writing, the canvas interface is much more effective because you rely less on copy and paste. For code, even with the ctrl+i method, it works but it's a pain to have to load all other files as reference every single time.

Re: Chat is a bad UI pattern for development tools

#215

I'm going to take a contrarian view and say it's actually a good UI, but it's all about how you approach it. I just finished a small project where I used o3-mini and o3-mini-high to generate most of the code. I averaged around 200 lines of code an hour, including the business logic and unit tests. Total was around 2200 lines. So, not a big project, but not a throw away script. The code was perfectly fine for what we…

[deleted]

Re: Chat is a bad UI pattern for development tools

#216

I'm going to take a contrarian view and say it's actually a good UI, but it's all about how you approach it. I just finished a small project where I used o3-mini and o3-mini-high to generate most of the code. I averaged around 200 lines of code an hour, including the business logic and unit tests. Total was around 2200 lines. So, not a big project, but not a throw away script. The code was perfectly fine for what we…

To add to that, I always add some kind of debug function wrapper so I can hand off the state of variables and program flow to the LLM when I need to debug something. Sometimes it's really hard to explain exactly what went wrong so being able to give it a chunk of the program state is more descriptive.

Re: Chat is a bad UI pattern for development tools

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but what is a good pattern to leverage AI tools for coding? Actual product stakeholders are not likely to spill their magic sauce and give free consultancy.

"Actual product stakeholders" in this space clearly don't actually have any magic sauce to spill. Everyone is building more or less the same chat-based workflows on the same set of 3rd-party LLMs. The space is ripe for folks with actual domain expertise to design an appropriate AI workflow for their domain.

I have magic sauce that I haven't spilled yet.

Re: Chat is a bad UI pattern for development tools

#218

I'm going to take a contrarian view and say it's actually a good UI, but it's all about how you approach it. I just finished a small project where I used o3-mini and o3-mini-high to generate most of the code. I averaged around 200 lines of code an hour, including the business logic and unit tests. Total was around 2200 lines. So, not a big project, but not a throw away script. The code was perfectly fine for what we…

Totally agree. Chat is a fantastic interface because it stays out of my way. For me it's much more than a coding assistant. I get live examples of how to use tools, and help with boilerplate, which is a time saver and improvement over legacy workflows, but the real benefit is all the spitballing I can do with it to refine ideas and logic and help getting up to speed on tooling way outside of my domain. I spent about 3.5 hours chatting with o1 about RL architecture to solve some business problems. Now I have a crystal clear plan and the confidence to move forward in an optimal way. I feel a little weird now, like I was just talking to myself for a few hours, but it totally helped me work through the planning. For actual code, I find myself being a bit less interactive with LLMs as time goes, sometimes it's easier to just write the logic the way I want rather than trying to explain how I want it but the ability to retrieve code samples for anything with ease is like a superpower. Not to mention all the cool stuff LLMs can do at runtime via API. Yeah, chat is great, and I'll stick with writing code in Vim and pasting as needed.

Re: Chat is a bad UI pattern for development tools

#219
This is exactly why we're developing our AI developer workflow product "Brilliant" to steer users away from conversations altogether.

Many developers don't realize this but as you go back and forth with models, you are actively polluting their context with junk and irrelevant old data that distracts and confuses it from what you're actually trying to do right now. When using sleeker products like Cursor, it's easy to forget just how much junk context the model is constantly getting fed (from implicit RAG/context gathering and hidden intermediate steps). In my experience LLM performance falls off a cliff somewhere around 4 decent-sized messages, even without including superfluous context.

We're further separating the concept of "workflow" from "conversation" and prompts, basically actively and aggressively pruning context and conversation history as our agents do their thing (and only including context that is defined explicitly and transparently), and it's allowing us to tackle much more complex tasks than most other AI developer tools. And we are a lot happier working with models - when things don't work we're not forced to grovel for a followup fix, we simply launch a new action to make the targeted change we want with a couple clicks.

It is in a weird way kind of degrading to have to politely ask a model to change a color after it messed up, and it's also just not an efficient way to work with LLMs - people just default to that style because it's how you'd interact with a human you are delegating tasks to. Developers still need to truly internalize the facts that LLMs are purely completion machines, that your conversation history lives entirely client side outside of active inference, and that you can literally set your conversation input to be whatever you want (even if the model never said that) - after that realizing you're on the path towards using LLMs like "what words do I need to put it in to get it to do what I want" rather than working "with" them.

Re: Chat is a bad UI pattern for development tools

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Email threads seem better for documenting and searching correspondence. The last counter argument I read got buried on Discord or Slack somewhere.

I find things get buried just as easily in email. People on my team are constantly resending each other emails, because they can’t find the thread. This is why, if something is important, I take it out of email and put it into a document people can reference. The latest and correct information from all the decisions in the thread can also be collected in one place, so everyone reading doesn’t have to figure it out. N…

We had this problem in our organization circa 20 years back so I built a ticketing system, now each conversation exists as its own object, and "the same thing being discussed twice" has the opportunity to be merged into one, etc. That seems to have helped a lot with our internal conversations.
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