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Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

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Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#211

Post by kspacewalk2 »

kaonwarb wrote: post #26
munchler wrote: post #11

> I captured two drivers ripping through red lights in that short span Video actually shows two cars entering the intersection on yellow lights, which is legal. The rest of the article seems similarly exaggerated. ---- Edit: For those who disagree, please be aware that the stop lines are out of frame, so both cars are already in the intersection before they're visible on the video. You can get a better picture of wha…

Just rewatched and agree they both entered on orange, which is legal. This clear misinterpretation makes me question the author's take as a whole. Did they consider that cars also regularly run stop signs? Is it possible that this is, in fact, safer for pedestrians, albeit more frustrating while waiting?

What difference does it make? The main point is that this design induces drivers to speed up even more than they're already speeding (and, this being North America, they're already speeding), at a dangerous point in time when pedestrians are starting to cross. It literally makes no practical difference whether they're entering on a very late yellow or a red.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#212

Post by jbritton »

SoftTalker wrote: post #31
munchler wrote: post #11

> I captured two drivers ripping through red lights in that short span Video actually shows two cars entering the intersection on yellow lights, which is legal. The rest of the article seems similarly exaggerated. ---- Edit: For those who disagree, please be aware that the stop lines are out of frame, so both cars are already in the intersection before they're visible on the video. You can get a better picture of wha…

Yellow generally means do not enter the intersection unless you are so close that you cannot reasonably stop. It is not legal to enter the intersection if you cannot clear it before the signal turns red. Exact rules and enforcement vary by state.

In CA we have many intersections where one wants to turn left, but there is not a dedicated left turn signal. When the light turns green, you pull out into the intersection. Ideally you pull out enough that the car behind you can also get into the intersection. On busy roads you may not be able to complete the left turn until the signal goes red. If you chose not to pull out, then nobody would ever be able to turn left. I believe CA passed a law some 20 plus years ago that you must be able to clear the intersection before the red light, which is in conflict with what is sometimes necessary. There are situations though where the direction you are headed is backed up, such that if you pulled out you could end up stuck in the middle of the intersection long after the red light. I believe the law was intended for this situation. So don’t pull out if your direction of travel is blocked.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#213

Post by sethammons »

alkonaut wrote: post #5

Knew before I clicked: it's a flat 4-way intersection of two large-ish streets where there is ample space for something else. Hint: draw a small circle in the middle of the intersection and take down the damn stop signs.

zoom out on the map. There is a big roundabout a couple blocks away. It is called "The Circle In Orange."

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#214

Post by NegativeLatency »

ed312 wrote: post #153
hombre_fatal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Texas government decided that red light cameras can't enforce the law. That's how car-brained we are. Muh privacy or something.

The core issue is those red light cameras create a persistent database of who is where, which is then sold at a marginal cost to whoever wants it to advertise to/manipulate/track a population. Adding cameras everywhere invites a dystopian nightmare vs better urban design and occasional traffic police would solve the same problem.

Write the legislation so data is not retained/sold. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#215

Post by tanewishly »

afhsrtjwrtj wrote: post #139
throwway120385 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With the walk signal there is a brief moment in time when the drivers are doing nothing but waiting for you and are all stopped so you as a pedestrian can account for them in preparation just before you get your signal and make your move. Having almost been hit a few times by drivers making a right turn on red, I can tell you the drivers never wait even if you have the right of way. You'll be lucky if they even loo…

Why is right-on-red always cited as the biggest problem with turns? My anecdotal experience is that drivers turning on green are way more likely to hit me when I have a walk signal on the cross-street than drivers who turn right on red.

Are you saying that a right-turn can be green simultaneous with the pedestrian's crossing light being green?

Because where I'm from, traffic lights are not allowed to be set up like that. No simultaneous green for crossing traffic flows, unless otherwise indicated (eg, an extra warning light+sign under the turn's traffic light flashing when it's green and off otherwise).

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#216

Post by hevang »

munchler wrote: post #78
hevang wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legality aside, is that not kind of the issue here? Lights in a high foot traffic area could incentivize people to speed up to make it before the red, which is less predictable and has cars traveling at faster speeds compared to a stop sign, which requires all cars to stop. Embellished yes, but point of the article showing that this intersection is now more dangerous to pedestrians stands imo.

Using stop lights to control this sort of high-traffic intersection is totally normal in the US. Stop signs are typically used for lower-traffic intersections. Subjectively speaking, I think drivers are more likely to obey a red light than a stop sign. Perhaps the author of this article is upset that the neighborhood now has more traffic than it used to, but that's a different issue.

I'm not sure I've seen evidence that running stop signs is more likely, but even if that is the case which one is higher risk? I'd subjectively say running red lights is more dangerous as you have a higher chance of several pedestrians entering the cross walk all at once, or several cars going at once, since it causes people/cars to move in waves. I think its pretty clear that the author is upset that a stop light that increases risk for pedestrians, cost the school and city money, and provides minimal time advantage for cars was implemented.

Also, I'd like to point out that normal does not mean good, or best.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#217

Post by simiones »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #198
avgDev wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is another line before. We don't really see the entire intersection.

The author is pissed off about the design of the intersection. If you have to litigate bullshit like this, surely you see, well, the intersection is poorly designed. You are also litigating whether or not it's legal. A lot of traditions of California driving are legal and really dangerous. My dude, CVC doesn't even apply in a private parking lot for example, so you can accidentally kill somebody in one and legally fa…

On the other hand, whether the driver was legally or illegally passing through the intersection is also irrelevant for safety: the fact is that the video clearly shows that the driver didn't put anyone's lives at risk this time, neither themself, any pedestrians, nor any incoming cars.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#218

Post by dvdkon »

1970-01-01 wrote: post #122
dvdkon wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Car-centrism" isn't some immutable property given to the US at the dawn of time. Infrastructure is built according to people's opinions, and in a democracy you change those people's opinions (or replace them altogether) by complaining. And I don't think pedestrian infrastructure advocates expect it to "fall from the sky". They expect it to be built by municipalities over time, just like everyone else.

I fully disagree. Road infra is engineered to move goods quickly, and never to public opinion unless that public opinion brings loads of cash to help. Again, there are major exceptions to this default. Complaining about it helps, but does not bring cash to the table when it's time to build or rebuild road infra. As municipalities change over time, a city will always regress to car-first. Cars are simply the easiest p…

If road infrastructure is designed solely to move goods quickly, it's only because people made a choice to prioritise that. Not The People, but indivial bureaucrats.

At least here in the Czech Republic, moving goods isn't on anyone's radar when designing municipal infrastructure. Delivery vehicles need to physically fit, sure, but any economic benefit they bring will only be felt as a very slight n-th order effect by the municipality. Complaining residents, be they pro-pedestrian or pro-car, are immediate and much more likely to be heard.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#219

Post by horsawlarway »

nirvdrum wrote: post #190
addicted wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the article doesn’t claim what the drivers are doing is illegal. The article says that the street design causes drivers to speed up and makes the intersections unsafe. Instead of drivers always stopping, or at the very least slowing down, when approaching the intersection, the new street design leads to drivers speeding up when approaching the intersection. This is bad design for pedestrians irrespective of wh…

> Except the article doesn’t claim what the drivers are doing is illegal. The article states “… and I captured two drivers ripping through red lights in that short span.” I suppose “ripping through” can be left up to interpretation. However, in the video the author says “that person just ran a stop… a red light right in the middle of me filming.” Then the other he says: “I bet this guy runs the light. Yup, see, this…

I don't know if California has a different law, but at least in my state it is very much illegal to accelerate into a yellow light.

Enforcement is basically non-existent, but it's absolutely "running the light" and "breaking the law" to accelerate into yellow lights.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#220

Post by dheera »

"pedestrians have to press the beg button, wait for the light to cycle through its routine, and then walk across the street"

Quite often what happens is

- Pedestrian presses button

- Light doesn't change for 30 seconds and there are no cars in sight

- Pedestrian goes "fuck it" and crosses

- Light changes red, after pedestrian is done crossing

- Car comes along and gets stopped at red light for 30 seconds

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