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The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

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Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#211

Post by watwut »

expatjapan121 wrote: post #112
germandiago wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not saying your experience must be the same. According to the three japanese people in my group here and some other feedback from people living there before, same as you I guess, and they speak japanese quite ok, our conclusion is that being one more is not as easy as in other countries. I say this from the strictest respect to japanese. I like them, I like their culture. If you live there you must know perfectl…

> If you live there you must know perfectly that just bc they act politely does not mean they are thinking you do not bother them. Since this makes a strong assumption on how people "think", I really don't know how to respond to this. > If you live there you must know perfectly No I don't.

What people "think" affects how they act behind your back. Whether they tell you all the information you need or the bare minimum. Whether you get to be picked up for a project or not in situation where there are multiple competing people. Whether you get invited and can become member of an in-group.

Basically, what people euphemism away here is "you get to be slightly discriminated against". In the USA situation, we would say "they are racist against you while keeping it politically correct wherever provable". It has measurable impact.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#212

Post by cedws »

watwut wrote: post #209
cedws wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And anyway, you will never be a japanese Well, yes, if you weren't born in Japan or born to Japanese parents, you will never be Japanese. And isn't that fine? I don't understand why somebody who has immigrated to a foreign country must be accepted like a native. Why can't one just peacefully integrate the best they can and accept their differences?

> Why can't one just peacefully integrate the best they can and accept their differences? Their complaint is that they want to integrate entirely and can not. They do not want to be different, they want to be the same. They want their kids to be treated the same. And the claim is, regardless of how well you integrate, how well you speak you will not be fully integrated.

I don't know why this mentality pervades the West - the mentality that as an immigrant you are entitled to be accepted by natives. Just because you speak the language and have stuck around for a while, doesn't make you one of them. There will always be irreconcilable differences.

FWIW I will be moving to Japan next year. I don't care if the Japanese 'accept' me. I don't expect to be treated the same, I know that they're somewhat xenophobic, and some of that might be for good reason. I fully accept that I will be a guest in their country. My goal is to do my best to minimise inconvenience to others and prioritise their cultural norms over mine.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#213

Post by reactivematter »

Language is a technology to communicate thoughts. Over time it has become an important cultural aspect, but it should be treated firstly as a technology. Over time as technologies evolve and people adapt to it, with globalization there is no escape from the requirement of a common language (_lingua franca_). Though English serves a default common language due to the colonization era, I don't see any serious attempts by big nations (I mean population wise) to develop a common language that all can claim their own. Without this, in another 100 years, despite united by globalization and web technologies, knowledge barriers will continue to remain due to different languages.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#214

Post by numpad0 »

mike50 wrote: post #167
SpecialistK wrote: post #65

I only speak English, but I have found and theorized that one's ability to learn and retain a L2 is heavily affected by your society's "need" to communicate outside of the national language. This article largely reinforces that theory. If people do not have a need to learn another language, it becomes an uphill battle. People in Finland report higher levels of English competency than people in France (despite French…

French is widely spoken throughout the world. If you speak French you can travel to Canada, the Caribbean, Africa and parts of South America without needing to speak another language. Also French is an official language in Belgium, Switzerland and Luxembourg as well as being widely spoken and taught as a second language in contentental Europe. Japan is spoken mostly in Japan and expat communities.

The "addressable market" compares. Combined total of French speakers is estimated to be ~160m, against Japanese population of ~120m.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#215

Post by Nasrudith »

bulbosaur123 wrote: post #44

I will get downvoted and hated for what I'm going to say. What's with the west's pathalogical obsession with Japan and Japanese? Is anime & JAV to blame here? Look, you have Chinese spoken by 1.35 billion people. Foreigners who speak Chinese are way more rare than those who speak Japanese, therefore making it a more valuable language to acquire for business, diplomacy and travel. China is the new emerging superpower.…

Japan is also a convenient 'bridge' of what is commonly categorized as Western culture and Eastern culture. This is somewhat by their own design, and has a long history given both their own Westernization efforts from their infamous imperial days and post occupation. That gives them a unique niche of exotic and yet somewhat comfortably familiar so that it more often feels 'weird' but not necessarily 'alienating'.

China is the new kid on the block in comparison, even if China was a robust democracy they would be at a disadvantage in cultural propagation from this. They try to promote some of their own cultural products but a dictatorship self-sabotages anything too good or popular having a deliberate chilling effect.

Korea as a third culture makes a decent comparative reference. They are 'newer' culturally than Japan (in terms of widespread western cultural exposure) but South Korean music, film, and TV are growing and more evident among younger generations. There are some western Manhwa fans but it is still more niche.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#216

Post by bluepizza »

germandiago wrote: post #182
famahar wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This strong need to be accepted by a whole country is something I see mentioned a lot by a particular group of people that have never really been "othered" in their life. Coming to Japan is quite a shock for them because they experience being a minority for the first time in their lives. I was born in Canada and have dealt with micro-aggresions and blatant racism my whole life there. Living in Japan I can say I feel…

We were talking about integration. If you are happy more or less ghettoing yourself that is right. But we were talking about being accepted. It os really difficult to be accepted in japanese circles as one more. But it is not the case, for example, in Spain in comparison. I was not talking about having the apprpval of others. I do not really care. But in order to get integrated there are cultures that are really flex…

Japanese people have trouble being accepted in circles of Japanese people.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#217

Post by germandiago »

cedws wrote: post #212
watwut wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why can't one just peacefully integrate the best they can and accept their differences? Their complaint is that they want to integrate entirely and can not. They do not want to be different, they want to be the same. They want their kids to be treated the same. And the claim is, regardless of how well you integrate, how well you speak you will not be fully integrated.

I don't know why this mentality pervades the West - the mentality that as an immigrant you are entitled to be accepted by natives. Just because you speak the language and have stuck around for a while, doesn't make you one of them. There will always be irreconcilable differences. FWIW I will be moving to Japan next year. I don't care if the Japanese 'accept' me. I don't expect to be treated the same, I know that they…

I am not sure who talked about being entitled to be accepted or complaints.

I just highlighted some facts and compared it to other environments: many japanese do not give a hell about foreigners or interacting with them to the point they are not even interested in learning english and that is ok.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#218

Post by majikaja »

What is there to integrate into? Adult life is mostly just going to work to pay the bills. I don't know anyone with a particularly interesting life outside of their job.

Most Japanese people aren't going to be any less apathetic about a foreigner than others of their own group. Naturally there will be more traction with those looking for free English teachers and gaijin hunters. What a larger proportion of people likes is money and entertainment. Not so much foreigners trying to be Japanese. A foreigner giving such vibes will always be lower down in social status than the natives.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#219

Post by germandiago »

watwut wrote: post #211
expatjapan121 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you live there you must know perfectly that just bc they act politely does not mean they are thinking you do not bother them. Since this makes a strong assumption on how people "think", I really don't know how to respond to this. > If you live there you must know perfectly No I don't.

What people "think" affects how they act behind your back. Whether they tell you all the information you need or the bare minimum. Whether you get to be picked up for a project or not in situation where there are multiple competing people. Whether you get invited and can become member of an in-group. Basically, what people euphemism away here is "you get to be slightly discriminated against". In the USA situation, we…

I know it sounds bad but as long as it is private stuff you cannot choose what people prefer whether that is discrimination or not.

In fact, if someone does not want me somewhere, I would not need to stay there to like them.

Also, how do you know it is always discrimination? Sometimes it might be but sometimes maybe no. It is a problem without a good solution that I think trying to solve brings further trouble (in these situations, I do not support any kind of legal discrimination, of course).

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#220

Post by majikaja »

majikaja wrote: post #218

What is there to integrate into? Adult life is mostly just going to work to pay the bills. I don't know anyone with a particularly interesting life outside of their job. Most Japanese people aren't going to be any less apathetic about a foreigner than others of their own group. Naturally there will be more traction with those looking for free English teachers and gaijin hunters. What a larger proportion of people lik…

If you want to be respected (but not 'integrate') as a foreigner by traditional society in Japan it's good to work at a prestigious place where there are few Japanese people such as an embassy. Failing that a gaishikei company that sounds foreign to people who don't know better but isn't (likely >90% Japanese). Or just be rich (this may also involve being very picky or completely averse to working with the native population).
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