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Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#211

Post by gruez »

aaronax wrote: post #131
golemotron wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative, giving them a password that gives them read/write access to sensitive systems, would be insane. Subpoena for particular data.

Thinking the systems that a company has are so sensitive that the company is basically above the law is the insane thing. It is just a company--a group of people granted certain rights. They have databases...fancy filing cabinets. Just because the company is famous shouldn't preclude their filing cabinets from being searched (presuming legal processes are used and not abused).

> They have databases...fancy filing cabinets. Just because the company is famous shouldn't preclude their filing cabinets from being searched (presuming legal processes are used and not abused).

That analogy doesn't work, because the "filing cabinets" are actually sitting somewhere else, possibly in another country/continent. It's not obvious that authorities in one country has authority over documents stored in another country.

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#212

Post by exe34 »

stuaxo wrote: post #86
Algent wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's basically what happened when they tried (twice I think ?) to raid Uber offices in France, their boss pressed a kill switch and everything went down in seconds. It completely blocked the investigation. Afterward Uber helped Macron campaign who then ordered National Financial Prosecutor's office to "stop bothering them" so I don't think anything new happened since. Edit: Some sources in below replies for infos o…

That sounds so illegal, it's crazy there aren't consequences for that. EDIT: Article on the kills switch https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jul/10/uber-bosses-tol...

you'd think a judge could order you to provide the documents and then jail you for contempt of court until you do?

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#213

Post by AnthonyMouse »

pjerem wrote: post #168
dmurray wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does a search warrant for your house give the police the right to search your car, if they found your car keys in your house? What about your neighbour's or your employer's car - perhaps on the other side of the world - if you happened to have those keys? To compel you not to tell your employer to change the locks, so the seized keys won't work? These seem like closer real-world analogies for what exactly a warrant t…

Your analogy doesn’t work. Your neighbor is not you. $COMPANY is $COMPANY all around the world and if $COMPANY wants to do business in $COUNTRY (which is not an obligation, they choose to), then yes, they have to entirely cooperate with $COUNTRY. If they don’t want to, they can still do business elsewhere.

> $COMPANY is $COMPANY all around the world

This is the thing which is not the case. The subsidiary in the US is nearly always a different company than the one(s) in Europe. They'll have different management and different lawyers etc. Sometimes they even have different owners, e.g. because one of them is a joint venture with some other company, or a franchise. And they have to be different, because different countries have different laws and those laws often conflict with each other. So the subsidiary in the US follows US law and the one in France follows the law in France.

You could try to make it otherwise, but it's pretty obvious what would happen then. Companies couldn't formally operate in multiple countries because their laws are incompatible, so instead there would be a straw front company in any given country that nominally isn't owned by the conglomerate, but is effectively just reselling their product/service in that country for an additional margin that only pays the salary of local management. To prevent this you would have to ban companies from having foreign suppliers, which is not very practical.

And since countries know that's what would happen, they allow foreign subsidiaries to be regarded as separate entities even if they have shared ownership, instead of demanding the charade.

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#214

Post by MichaelZuo »

jraph wrote: post #165
MichaelZuo wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this relevant to Uber's files and computers located in other jurisdictions?

If you do business in France, you are accountable in France. Your problem to provide the asked documents if it's the law to provide them. That you are using computers elsewhere to store stuff should not be any relevant. You shouldn't really be able to have it both ways, should you?

Uber's files and computers located in French territory are of course accountable to French authorities, but that's simply not the case for those located in other jurisdictions…

Unless there is some international law or treaty mandating that?

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#215

Post by YetAnotherNick »

sensanaty wrote: post #104
YetAnotherNick wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should it be illegal? Isn't it akin to "right to remain silent"? Why the need to present any information to police unless it is asked by court. Assuming that they didn't delete the data, just moved it to somewhere safe where it couldn't directly be taken away. We had a raid in one of my previous company due to copyright violation due to a user uploaded content. Authorities came in to take in all the codebase, rep…

Presumably the French police aren't randomly deciding on a Tuesday for no reason to check the company for proof of them being tax cheats without some court somewhere requesting it, but even if they were, we're talking about a company here, not a person. A person has the right to remain silent, it doesn't make sense for a company to have that same right. And the 2nd half just reads like pure corruption to me, they pai…

> And the 2nd half just reads like pure corruption to me

Why did you conclude that?

There were some user uploaded pirated content in our platform. As far as I know, some media company won approval by some judge for a raid to discover the extent of piracy. It's just in the police rulebook to get everything during the raid where there could be pirated content, including employees laptops.

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#216

Post by gruez »

tokinonagare wrote: post #171
MichaelZuo wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it's hard to see how any French official would have authority to conduct searches 10 meters beyond French borders, let alone over all of Uber's computers located in dozens of other countries.

If a company is doing business here, the actual location of file is irrelevant. Also when the government is really motivated, he can arrested the founders or executives directly (Pavel Durov). Which is what they should do to Netflix execs if they are doing business illegally.

>Also when the government is really motivated, he can arrested the founders or executives directly (Pavel Durov). Which is what they should do to Netflix execs if they are doing business illegally.

You're in favor of holding executives hostage to demand access to data? If they actually did something illegal, they can be arrested/tried for that, but arresting executives as a means to coerce companies into doing stuff is a total perversion of the rule of law.

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#217

Post by echoangle »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #202
chollida1 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the government already has a warrant to obtain this evidence(they can't raid the office otherwise) and you as the company pushing this button are failing to turn over that evidence.

[flagged]

You have a right to not help them, but you can’t actively destroy evidence. Do you think it would be fine to begin burning documents once the police comes to you office?

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#218

Post by valval »

aaronax wrote: post #131
golemotron wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative, giving them a password that gives them read/write access to sensitive systems, would be insane. Subpoena for particular data.

Thinking the systems that a company has are so sensitive that the company is basically above the law is the insane thing. It is just a company--a group of people granted certain rights. They have databases...fancy filing cabinets. Just because the company is famous shouldn't preclude their filing cabinets from being searched (presuming legal processes are used and not abused).

I and many others think the government should have 0 business in my filing cabinet. That difference in world view might be what makes this topic more complex than you seem to think.

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#219

Post by MichaelZuo »

tokinonagare wrote: post #171
MichaelZuo wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it's hard to see how any French official would have authority to conduct searches 10 meters beyond French borders, let alone over all of Uber's computers located in dozens of other countries.

If a company is doing business here, the actual location of file is irrelevant. Also when the government is really motivated, he can arrested the founders or executives directly (Pavel Durov). Which is what they should do to Netflix execs if they are doing business illegally.

Irrelevant according to who?
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