Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself • Hacker News Board

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#211

Post by blhack » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 6:31 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #171

blhack wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you would make a blanket statement about somebody learning "economics" as if that is one skill demonstrates your level of understanding here, methinks. -- I think you don't understand the culture at burning man, which is, or at least triest to be, completely decoupled from the concept of money. In fact, that is one of the 10 core principles.

The fact that you claimed that I had made assumptions that I had not in fact made demonstrates your level of understanding. Can we dismiss the snide remarks? I freely admit that I have never gone to burning man, nor could I possibly fit something like that into my life for many years. However that said, a better understanding of money and economics would ironically enable burning man to better set things up to create…

Sure we can dismiss the snide remarks. Start by retracting your implication that I refuse to learn economics.

Burning man is:

A) a nonprofit B) not a concert C) not trying to maximize their intake of money D) Attended by people from every category of the economic spectrum from Sergey and Larry to the guy saving all year for the lowest income tier of ticket.

What you're describing doesn't work for this. I'm sorry.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#212

Post by jessriedel » Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 1:09 PM UTC

jamesbritt wrote: post #151

jessriedel wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the short term, there are a fixed number of hard drives (and beach balls, and microwave ovens, ...). Why don't we have to worry about hard drive scalpers artificially constraining the supply?

Interesting question. It made think of another situation. How often would CK have to perform to make scalping essentially a non-issue? More than once a year I would guess. But once a month? Every week? What factors determine this?

It would be determined mostly by price, and this would just be another version of the supply/demand curve. If he sells the tickets at $20 each, then 100k will want to see his show. At $50 each, 10k people, and so on.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#213

Post by todtown » Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 3:32 PM UTC

I've read this entire thread with great enthusiasm, and I am about to make a comment that will probably be scoffed at by the majority of you. However, where does ethics and morality factor into the good/bad of ticket scalping? If it was NEVER the artist's intention to have their tickets resold, and the scalper does it anyway, then regardless of who benefits or who doesn't, is it still ethical? And if not, should it be practiced?

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#214

Post by fusiongyro » Fri, Jul 06, 2012, 10:08 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #194

fusiongyro wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they're only paying extra because, ta-da!, the tickets were scalped. The competition is higher at the lower price because, ta-da!, the tickets were scalped. The arguments for scalping only work if the effects of the scalping are ignored. Eliminating scalpers benefits everyone.

Suppose there are 1000 tickets for a show that are $20 each. There are 5000 people in town who would buy a ticket at that price. Without any scalping, the first 1000 people who show up get a ticket and 4000 people go home unhappy. With scalping, the first 1000 people who show up still get tickets. 900 of them are scalpers. (So if you were in the first 100, you still got to pay face value.) I'm being very generous wit…

Critical to your argument is the idea that standing in line is a service someone can charge for. It makes no sense when tickets are sold online 24/7 rather than out a window at a particular physical location. There is no line and no inconvenience to pay someone else to endure.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#215

Post by philwelch » Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 4:27 AM UTC

fusiongyro wrote: post #214

philwelch wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose there are 1000 tickets for a show that are $20 each. There are 5000 people in town who would buy a ticket at that price. Without any scalping, the first 1000 people who show up get a ticket and 4000 people go home unhappy. With scalping, the first 1000 people who show up still get tickets. 900 of them are scalpers. (So if you were in the first 100, you still got to pay face value.) I'm being very generous wit…

Critical to your argument is the idea that standing in line is a service someone can charge for. It makes no sense when tickets are sold online 24/7 rather than out a window at a particular physical location. There is no line and no inconvenience to pay someone else to endure.

24/7, but only until the tickets are sold out. It's inconvenient for me to schedule my life around when tickets are going on sale. But a scalper's entire business is scheduled around when tickets are going on sale.

And if you think that problem is somehow created by the scalpers, go learn what a demand curve looks like. When tickets are underpriced badly enough, obsessive fans with fewer responsibilities are going to buy up all the tickets before I'll have a chance. If the prices are high enough relative to demand that I actually could buy tickets whenever I want, 24/7, then scalpers are irrelevant. Even if they did buy up all the tickets, they'd have to sell them back to me at basically face value. Scalpers aren't a cartel or anything, they can't fix prices, and their inventory goes bad almost instantly when the event actually happens.

The convenience argument isn't actually that critical, though. What's more critical is that by allowing people to get tickets two different ways--either buying them earlier, OR paying more--scalpers also make the ticket distribution more fair, not just more convenient for those willing to pay more.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#216

Post by fusiongyro » Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 9:00 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #215

fusiongyro wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Critical to your argument is the idea that standing in line is a service someone can charge for. It makes no sense when tickets are sold online 24/7 rather than out a window at a particular physical location. There is no line and no inconvenience to pay someone else to endure.

24/7, but only until the tickets are sold out. It's inconvenient for me to schedule my life around when tickets are going on sale. But a scalper's entire business is scheduled around when tickets are going on sale. And if you think that problem is somehow created by the scalpers, go learn what a demand curve looks like. When tickets are underpriced badly enough, obsessive fans with fewer responsibilities are going to…

Believe it or not, it's possible to know what a demand curve looks like _and_ disagree with you.

We all want special treatment, but resent it when other people get it. When a government distributes scarce resources unevenly by providing greater access to people who are wiling to pay more on an unregulated market, we don't call that 'making resource distribution more fair by increasing options,' we call it corruption. It's quite possible to make a seemingly well-reasoned argument that corruption is fine starting from the same basis, but most people will find the idea as repugnant as ticket scalping for basically the same reason. In short, I don't think your definition of "fair" as pertains to scalping is particularly meaningful.

For what it's worth, I bought my tickets about a week after they went on sale and had no trouble.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#217

Post by philwelch » Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 7:57 PM UTC

fusiongyro wrote: post #216

philwelch wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

24/7, but only until the tickets are sold out. It's inconvenient for me to schedule my life around when tickets are going on sale. But a scalper's entire business is scheduled around when tickets are going on sale. And if you think that problem is somehow created by the scalpers, go learn what a demand curve looks like. When tickets are underpriced badly enough, obsessive fans with fewer responsibilities are going to…

Believe it or not, it's possible to know what a demand curve looks like _and_ disagree with you. We all want special treatment, but resent it when other people get it. When a government distributes scarce resources unevenly by providing greater access to people who are wiling to pay more on an unregulated market, we don't call that 'making resource distribution more fair by increasing options,' we call it corruption.…

I usually do too, because most tickets I buy have a face value close enough to the market clearing price to begin with. But by your very own logic, that is still unfair--it would be more fair if tickets cost less but were more difficult to buy because they sold out more quickly.

The entire purpose of prices is to help distribute scarce resources efficiently. Just like Nixon's notorious attempt of putting price controls on gasoline, government messes things up when it tries to dictate a lower-than-market-clearing price. And it's hard to get me worked up with a fundamental justice argument over luxury goods anyway.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#218

Post by dredmorbius » Sat, Jul 07, 2012, 8:49 PM UTC

ben0x539 wrote: post #201

mhartl wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last year Burning Man sold out for the first time. In an attempt to alleviate the shortages, this year they had a lottery where people could request up to four tickets per person. The obvious strategy was to request more than you needed, in order to hedge your risk of losing the lottery (essentially a prisoner's dilemma situation). The utterly predictable outcome was worse shortages. They added an aftermarket to "fix…

> Since the market price is higher, this guarantees shortages. I don't really understand this. There's obviously more people who want to see the event than there's room, so isn't that what guarantees the shortage? Raising the price just artificially moves the point where you say "welp, can't go" from not being able to find a ticket to not being able to afford one. It doesn't really improve availability?

That's how economists define "surplus" vs. "shortage".

There's a shortage of a good when the price is set lower than what the market is willing to pay. The economist's solution is to set the price higher (this may also encourage means of increasing supply, depending on price elasticity of supply).

There's an excess of a good when the price is set higher than what the market is willing to pay. The economist's solution is to set the price lower (which may also result in some producers exiting the market and/or reducing output).

There are problems in this theory where it intersects with social / political / physical production. Food, for example, is relatively price-inelastic: there's a certain amount of calories people require to survive on a daily basis, and all the price pressure you can apply isn't going to move mere calories by more than a relatively small amount up or down (people will either starve or become obese). Though you can manipulate food quality: meat (more resource-intensive than vegetarian diets), nutritional quality, freshness, organic vs. artificial / technologically intensive agricultural methods.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#219

Post by ticket_guru » Mon, Jul 09, 2012, 6:28 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #194

fusiongyro wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they're only paying extra because, ta-da!, the tickets were scalped. The competition is higher at the lower price because, ta-da!, the tickets were scalped. The arguments for scalping only work if the effects of the scalping are ignored. Eliminating scalpers benefits everyone.

Suppose there are 1000 tickets for a show that are $20 each. There are 5000 people in town who would buy a ticket at that price. Without any scalping, the first 1000 people who show up get a ticket and 4000 people go home unhappy. With scalping, the first 1000 people who show up still get tickets. 900 of them are scalpers. (So if you were in the first 100, you still got to pay face value.) I'm being very generous wit…

Another perspective on your thinking here, which I think over simplifies the situation.

On my blog (http://www.ticketeconomist.com/prices-101/), I have a chart that observes internet ticket resale for a couple of sold out concerts in 2005 and 2006. Sticking with your terms, the 900 and the 100 bought and sold out the show in 2 minutes. Now, 900 people who wanted to actually buy tickets and see the show have to go to the secondary market. 900 speculators crowded out 900 fans and now they are clearing prices that are anywhere from $10 to $100 above face. It is relevant to point out that the 900 have a number of methods for essentially cutting the line, so there are instances where the "service" involved some form of cheating the system. Is that good?

In fairness, the scenario you present is also not the norm. More often, 1,000 sophisticated buyers compete with 15,000 average Joe buyers for 10,000 tickets. The 1,000 buy the best 2,000 seats and the 15,000 fight it out for remaining 8,000 tickets, assuming there are no hold backs and that Ticketmaster's website works properly, which it often does not. At that point, some fraction of 11,000 desperate and dedicated fans turn to StubHub, eBay, etc. to find that that the $90 ticket is now $190. On the one hand, there was never enough supply to go around in the first place, on the other, 1,000 buyers were crowded out by speculators. The efficient market is really not so efficient with tickets for a complex series of reasons.

Finally, there are some sophisticated buyers who know that they can wait it out and buy tickets at or near face value close to show time. We are among those few, for now.