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How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

reuters.com

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Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#211

Post by aguaviva »

edanm wrote: post #210
aguaviva wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, the Palestinian territories have not been under occupation for 75 years. Only in its internal propaganda. The UN and even Israel's strongest allies consider all 4 areas to be occupied, and illegally so. (With Gaza one try to could quibble that there was no "effective" occupation from 2005-2023, but even that was never true in regard to control of Gaza's borders).

> Only in its internal propaganda. The UN and even Israel's strongest allies consider all 4 areas to be occupied, and illegally so. Oh, I meant that it hasn't been 75 years, not that the territories aren't occupied. They've only been occupied since 1967. This isn't just a quibble btw - it's worth asking who the territories are occupied from . Because there was never a Palestinian state, and those territories belonged…

Oh, I meant that it hasn't been 75 years, not that the territories aren't occupied.

You are right of course. It's been so long, I lose track of the math myself.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#212

Post by edanm »

tptacek wrote: post #209
edanm wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI I disagree that this necessarily means that in Gaza. Israel has spent 18 years fairly convinced that Hamas isn't a major threat and that Hezbollah is, so most resources were spent on preparing for war with Hezbollah. This is maybe even mostly correct. That means Israel was far more prepared to attack Hezbollah, and it shows. If the US were ever attacked by Russia, it has battle plans in place. If it were attacked…

Israel spent 18 years willfully not addressing Hamas the way it did Hezbollah, as a mechanism to prevent a 2-state solution. Israel is responsible for the fact that it did not have the level of seriousness and preparation for Hamas that it did for Hezbollah, knowing full well that it would ultimately end up fighting Hezbollah in the sparsely populated hills of southern Lebanon, and Hamas in dense urban areas. It is c…

> Please do not mistake me for someone who has any sympathy for the plight Israeli leadership finds itself in today. They belong in the Hague.

That's fair enough, many Israelis feel likewise. You shouldn't mistake me for liking the Israeli leadership either.

That said - Hamas played a game of pretending to be appeased, and it worked. I agree that Israel has been absolutely immoral over the last 18 years, though I think the bigger problem was closing off avenues for peace and not (as Israel should've done as the stronger party) aggressively pushing for peace.

That said - I do wonder what you think Israel should've done differently. Because to address Hamas earlier would've meant invading Gaza years ago. Certainly Israelis can and are upset that its leaders let Hamas build up so much strength, but do you think anyone in the world would've had any sympathy for Israel had it done a ground invasion to root out Hamas fifteen years ago? Even after October 7th there was barely sympathy to root out Hamas.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#213

Post by edanm »

hmcq6 wrote: post #206
edanm wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's true that before the British Mandate of Palestine the population of Syria Palaestina was 3-11% Jewish (Mizrahi Jews) but most of the Jewish population of Israel is not indigenous to that region of the world (like how the Ashkenazi Jews are from Europe and Eastern Russia). Firstly, Jews are originally indigenous to that part of the world, they were ethnically cleansed from that area by Rome. This is not even di…

> Firstly, Jews are originally indigenous to that part of the world No, that's not how this works. My 23&Me says my family came from Africa (as did all people), then southwest Asia then Europe but that doesn't give me the right to go to one of those countries and claim land. > The standard colonial pattern is [...] That is just not what most people are thinking of when thinking of colonialism. Man, you can't quote me…

> No, that's not how this works. My 23&Me says my family came from Africa (as did all people), then southwest Asia then Europe but that doesn't give me the right to go to one of those countries and claim land.

You brought up indigeneity. In what way are Jews not indigenous? I agreed with you that it's irrelevant right after. I don't think it automatically gives anyone right to claim any land.

> Yes, Jews fleeing the Holocaust did find refuge in Palestine but fleeing an ethnic cleansing of their own doesn't make the colonization that was already ongoing more legal.

Who exactly were the colonizers? The Jews who legally immigrated to that land under the Ottoman Empire? The Jews who legally immigrated to that land under British rule?

The 90% of the Jews who came to Israel because they literally had no where else to go after being in DP camps after WW2 and the UN voting for them to move to that land?

I'm not sure who are these mythical colonizers who came in and violent expelled Palestinians from the land. Most of the Jews either came legally through immigration or were refugees.

> A 2 state solution is not the only way, it is colonization.

This is literally the first time I've ever heard this claim. A two state solution is the stated goal of the PA, the representative of the Palestinian people. It was the goal of Arafat. Are you seriously saying that their goal, had it been reached, was a continuation of colonization?

I really don't know what to make of this argument. Two people live on a land and don't want to be part of the same state, for good reason. Both have reasonable reasons to consider that land theirs (certainly at this point) and nowhere else to go. What can be more sensible than splitting up that land?

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#214

Post by runarberg »

tptacek wrote: post #207
runarberg wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Post WW2 history does not treat kindly the kinds of atrocities currently being committed by Israel. I don’t know of any state which actually survived being a perpetrator of a genocide (at least not as a continuation of a functioning state). Khmer Cambodia did not, Rwanda did not. The closest is probably Serbia (but they were merely complicit of a genocide committed Republika Srpska which now only exists as a part of…

I don't know what any of this is supposed to mean. This kind of rhetoric is what jams up curious discussions about what's happening in the region; Syria and Yemen host actual genocidaires --- in Syria's case, of Palestinians in refugee camps --- and have killed civilians in the last 20 years greater multiples than the IDF has in its entire history. But somehow, Israelis notice, it's only Israel that needs to worry ab…

My point was originally that history does indeed have examples of apartheid states dissolving, contradicting your prediction that Israel wouldn’t dissolve. My point was simply to prove you wrong by citing historic examples.

My point was never to compare Israel to Rwanda (which I never did) but rather, since you weren’t convinced by the original statement, to further my case by citing other genocidal rampages which did in fact lead directly to the downfall of the perpetrating state. Your point about Syria might be on par with that as it is hardly a functioning state, although I would argue that their atrocities against Palestinian refugees don’t come anywhere close to the one currently ongoing by Israel, nor other cases of post WW2 genocides.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#216

Post by hmcq6 »

edanm wrote: post #213
hmcq6 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Firstly, Jews are originally indigenous to that part of the world No, that's not how this works. My 23&Me says my family came from Africa (as did all people), then southwest Asia then Europe but that doesn't give me the right to go to one of those countries and claim land. > The standard colonial pattern is [...] That is just not what most people are thinking of when thinking of colonialism. Man, you can't quote me…

> No, that's not how this works. My 23&Me says my family came from Africa (as did all people), then southwest Asia then Europe but that doesn't give me the right to go to one of those countries and claim land. You brought up indigeneity. In what way are Jews not indigenous? I agreed with you that it's irrelevant right after. I don't think it automatically gives anyone right to claim any land. > Yes, Jews fleeing the…

>A two state solution is the stated goal of the PA, the representative of the Palestinian people. It was the goal of Arafat. Are you seriously saying that their goal, had it been reached, was a continuation of colonization?

I'm sorry but wasn't this also you?

> OK. Can we agree that withdrawing all settlements and the military means less occupation than before?

Obviously, there are many in Palestine who would agree to a deal that *granted them statehood* and meant less occupation than before even if it didn't mean the full return of the land.

This isn't a serious line of questioning, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't say they're doing more colonization without the deal and then say the deal was bad for Palestine.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#217

Post by nujabe »

tptacek wrote: post #200
nujabe wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

tptacek, it’s hard to take any of your analysis seriously when you label Hezbollah, a non-state controlled armed resistance militia , with no tanks, fighter jets or submarines a “neer-peer military adversary” of Israel, which essentially has full & unlimited access to US weapons stockpiles and latest defence technology (minus nukes and subs). You are wittingly or unwittingly utilizing the same propaganda strategy of…

One reason I call them that is that they fought Israel to a standstill in southern Lebanon not long ago; the missile attacks were presumably an attempt to lure the IDF into a similar confrontation. Hezbollah is Iran; they are an instrument of the IRGC. Israel and Iran aren't near-peer military forces; they are peers. Israel cannot unilaterally overwhelm Iran.

[flagged]

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#218

Post by arp242 »

edanm wrote: post #186
arp242 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oslo accords were almost entirely concessions from the Palestinian side. There were no meaningful concessions on the Israeli settlement policy. Not only that, you had stuff like Ariel Sharon encouraging people to settle all the land while they can. It was hard to really take in good faith. And yes, with Arafat and the PLO seen as "selling out", as well as Baruch Goldstein's terror attack fanning the flames, Hamas was…

> Oslo accords were almost entirely concessions from the Palestinian side. There were no meaningful concessions on the Israeli settlement policy. This is just not true. The Palestinians didn't have any recognized governing body before the accords; the accords made the Palestinian Authority the official representative of the Palestinian people, and outlined the areas from which Israel would withdraw and that would be…

> Had they agreed, there would be a peace in place today.

There was no meaningful "peace deal" because there were no meaningful concessions on the root cause: the settlement policy. And several Israeli politicians were sabotaging things by encouraging further settlements.

My case is very simple: there needs to be a significant compromise on the settlement policy first, and only then can any meaningful agreement be reached and violence be reduced. Any "peace negations" without that on the table are not really meaningful and just window dressing. "Please behave nicely according to our satisfaction until we maybe give you your due rights" is not a reasonable demand, especially not in the face of some of the people in government right now.

And "Hamas born" was not the right term. The point is they stepped up their game and became influential, which is not particularly controversial AFAIK. IIRC they also didn't do any suicide attacks before Goldstein, but I could be misremembering that.

> But this notion that there was never any real chance at peace, that Israel never even tried to negotiate, etc, is something that people have only started saying in the last couple of years, it's not what anyone at the time was saying.

Different zeitgeist. Post cold war 90s were very optimistic. Too optimistic probably.

Also less of a "second world war" hangover. Look, I grew up with stories from my grandparents about the occupation. Half my history lessons were about the war and Holocaust. I have great sympathy for the Jewish people and would even go so far to consider myself a Zionist, at least for some meanings of the concept.

But also, I'm young enough that as far as I'm concerned it's too long ago, and while some morally dubious actions from the past are at least understandable, it's no longer a reason. Even more so for people 20 years younger than me who never had grandparents who told them stories.

I mean, half of the US was on-board with "Satanic Ritual Abuse" during the 80s. Just because "people are the time" said X or thought Y doesn't mean it's correct.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#219

Post by talldayo »

edanm wrote: post #208
hmcq6 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "some soldiers", Netanyahu and others at the top have signified their intent to commit genocide with their repeated dehumanization of Palestinians as "Amalek". The Israeli Minister of National Security was a member of a recognized terrorist group. It's not some bad apples, the leadership in Israel is rotten to the core. But it's clear that no matter what I say you're gonna excuse it. Throwing a baby into an…

> But it's clear that no matter what I say you're gonna excuse it. Throwing a baby into an oven in front of the father is some next level nazi shit. If you'll excuse that you'll excuse anything. I didn't excuse it. I said it was a terrible act. It was also committed more than 70 years ago, technically before Israel was even founded. Quite literally 3 years after millions of Jews were systematically burned in Nazi-Ger…

> It was also committed more than 70 years ago, technically before Israel was even founded.

> Those were statements made the week after the horrible October 7th massacre. They were propaganda statements that should never have been made, but you call it repeated. And it isn't.

Hmm... I smell a double standard. Cite Israeli aggression too recently and it's justified sensationalism - cite it from the 50s and you're passing an invisible statute of limitations. Most people on this site are American, they're not going to lambaste you for supporting a political nuthouse lest they scorn themselves. But they will (and rightfully so) contest anyone that tries laundering history to create a halo-effect for their favorite nation. Zionism deserves it's due shake no matter what the conditions were at the time, especially considering how interests in the region predated WWII with the Balfour declaration.

The problem isn't people, but politics. Israel (as does America with their Abrahamic militants) has an extremism problem that has been given undue control over government and military proceedings. Their actions (as you've admit with the propaganda concession) has justified insane actions and statements that cannot be rationally supported. The events of October 7th were gruesome indeed, but most people will admit that Israel's reactions were too incensed to take seriously. The world's apprehension would be proven correct as Israel made hot-headed mistakes like bombing aid workers and approving poorly-targeted operations as bloody restitution.

Two wrongs don't make a right. The US depends on Israel to not just enforce peace in the Levant, but to export the Western esprit de corps across the world. If Israel continues to allow it's politics to be dictated entirely by identity and emotion, then logic will be rhetorically unnecessary to justify any military action.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#220

Post by tptacek »

runarberg wrote: post #214
tptacek wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what any of this is supposed to mean. This kind of rhetoric is what jams up curious discussions about what's happening in the region; Syria and Yemen host actual genocidaires --- in Syria's case, of Palestinians in refugee camps --- and have killed civilians in the last 20 years greater multiples than the IDF has in its entire history. But somehow, Israelis notice, it's only Israel that needs to worry ab…

My point was originally that history does indeed have examples of apartheid states dissolving, contradicting your prediction that Israel wouldn’t dissolve. My point was simply to prove you wrong by citing historic examples. My point was never to compare Israel to Rwanda (which I never did) but rather, since you weren’t convinced by the original statement, to further my case by citing other genocidal rampages which di…

The Syrian state ran out of ordinary munitions during the civil war, but so desired to ethnically cleanse Sunni Palestinian refugee camps that they improvised by packing metal oil drums with high explosives, nails, scrap, and bearings, and then dropping them from helicopters onto the camps. There's video footage. Soldiers in the helicopters have to light fuses on them by hand, like 1920s silent film villains. They adopted a tactic of dropping a barrel bomb, waiting 10 minutes for responders to come help the wounded, and then dropping another one on them; they apparently called it a "double tap". They did this deliberately, exclusively targeting civilians.

And, of course, they did this in addition to deploying Sarin gas. Have you ever read the New Yorker story about the Baathist Sarin attacks on Halabja? If not, can I ask that you go read it (it's on archive.is; steel yourself) and then come back and tell me how you think the IDF stacks up regionally?

By the way: these are the people Hezbollah engaged its largest ever military mobilization to support. In Madaya, they deliberately blockaded food supplies into the suburb for months; people ate their pets, and then grass. Then they starved to death. Hezbollah leaders set up food displays with fresh proteins and produce and filmed joke videos.

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