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Rust needs a web framework

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Re: Rust needs a web framework

#211

Post by pjmlp »

akkad33 wrote: post #171
CharlieDigital wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think a lot of what people actually like about Rust, to be honest, is that it's essentially an ML language masquerading as a C-like, with a stellar packaging and tooling story. F# seems like a good option.

F#is not C like and it's tooling and packaging is not as good as rust. Last time I checked it had multiple packaging solutions like paket and nuget. The tooling on vscode can be buggy

Easy, stay with .NET standard tools, MSBuild.

There is also Visual Studio and Rider.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#212

Post by devjab »

whirlwin wrote: post #197
devjab wrote: post #10

> I like to make silly things, and I also like to put in minimal effort for those silly things. I also like to make things in Rust… I think this part is perhaps the silliest part of a very silly article. If you really like to put in a minimal effort then why on earth would you use Rust? If you want efficiency, memory management and a compiled modern language just use Go. Then you won’t even need anything but the stan…

From a technical point, you are absolutely correct. From a developer heavy business, it's a little more complicated. If Rust had a good full-fledged web framework, it would enable more developers to justify why the business should use Rust. The culprit is that it would require a heavy education budget, but it would in turn enable the business to allow using Rust for other parts of the business which could benefit fro…

If your goal is to use just one language then why wouldn’t you pick JavaScript (likely Typescript), C# with Blazor, Go with templates or basically anything on the JVM? Rust is a bad general purpose language in my opinion, and its performance isn’t actually good enough compared to C# to really justify the added headaches. I say this as someone who really, really, doesn’t like C# by the way.

If your goal is easy web development, Django, Ruby on Rails and Laravel are frankly going be extremely hard to beat. I prefer Go with templates, but that’s still much worse than those options.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#213

Post by qalmakka »

devjab wrote: post #10

> I like to make silly things, and I also like to put in minimal effort for those silly things. I also like to make things in Rust… I think this part is perhaps the silliest part of a very silly article. If you really like to put in a minimal effort then why on earth would you use Rust? If you want efficiency, memory management and a compiled modern language just use Go. Then you won’t even need anything but the stan…

> I like to make silly things, and I also like to put in minimal effort for those silly things

Saying that and then use Rust is like saying, "I want hassle-free driving, that's why I drive a car with a 7-speed manual shift".

If you want a full-auto, then use it. "Minimal effort" is the reason why people wrote garbage collectors in the first place.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#214

Post by Philpax »

mathw wrote: post #204
mrbonner wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think RC and clone are the way people begin to use Rust. While lots of criticism are against this usage for not idiomatic, it should be acceptable. Coming from Python, nodejs or Ruby, even RC and clone or stack based variables is still a magnitude faster than those languages. When it's about absolute control for performance you can drop down a notch to the borrow checker behavior.

That's an interesting perspective I'd not considered before. Maybe there are different "registers" of Rust, in the same sense that linguists talk about registers in human languages, where you use your language differently for different purposes. And thus, maybe if you're writing something that doesn't need to be screamingly fast absolutely all the time there's a register of Rust where putting lots of things in Rc > i…

You may be interested in https://without.boats/blog/the-registers-of-rust/ :)

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#215

Post by selfmodruntime »

devjab wrote: post #10

> I like to make silly things, and I also like to put in minimal effort for those silly things. I also like to make things in Rust… I think this part is perhaps the silliest part of a very silly article. If you really like to put in a minimal effort then why on earth would you use Rust? If you want efficiency, memory management and a compiled modern language just use Go. Then you won’t even need anything but the stan…

> If you really like to put in a minimal effort then why on earth would you use Rust

Because it's a fun language and you really do get to avoid the borrow checker nowadays if you just use `Arc` and `Clone` all over the place. I'm the same as OP.

Also, I love the package ecosystem. I know it (rightfully) gets some of the flack that the JS ecosystem gets, but most of the time, I truly don't care. I enjoy C programming as well, but C not having a common packaging system / cargo equivalent has really hurt it a bit in my opinion.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#216

Post by selfmodruntime »

saghm wrote: post #148
troad wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a fan of Rust for systems programming, but so many people are using Rust for things that are nothing even remotely close to systems programming. So many projects you see being written (or rewritten) in Rust are projects where I just think 'wait, why can't this just have a GC'? And then you look at the code base, and it's all Arc >s, and you can't help at marvel at this, since that's just GC, so what's the benefi…

> What people fall in love with is the rigorous static typing, the Option monad, the exhaustive enums (which are just sum types in disguise), the traits (type classes in disguise), the borrow checker (a half-way house to immutability) etc. I feel like I say this every time this sort of discussion comes up, but I still think that there's a space for a higher-level language with most of what people like from Rust that…

> but I still think that there's a space for a higher-level language with most of what people like from Rust that has a (tracing) garbage collector and is slightly more relaxed with trying to design a way around every marginal heap allocation

I dream about a Rust subset that's exactly that. What would be even better is if you could just use Rust packages directly with it. Since these libraries already do compile, correctness has been verified.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#217

Post by ramon156 »

No mention of loco-rs? poem? rocket? There's already a lot of projects that aim for a batteries-included experience.

What sets these projects apart from frameworks like leptos is that there's a CLI guiding you. That's what I love about Symfony, and what I consider the 'lazy' part.

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#218

Post by scns »

mathw wrote: post #208
satvikpendem wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is F# on non-Microsoft platforms, is it fully cross platform? I don't use C#, .NET, or F# so I have no idea about the ecosystem.

Yes F# has come along for the ride with modern .NET and it's as cross-platform as C# is. However, a lot of the really shiny .NET stuff is tooled up mostly for C# users, so it can be a challenge if you wanted to do something like a .NET MAUI (cross-platform GUI library) application in F# because the tooling and the content out there to teach you about it assumes C#. F# can usually handle C# things - they put a lot of…

> C# are looking at adding a traits-type feature (they don't seem to know what to call it yet, but the design's been kicking around the language team for ages now and keeps getting discussed)

Why not name it Traits?

Re: Rust needs a web framework

#219

Post by Philpax »

27theo wrote: post #23
p1necone wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a lazy developer and I love languages with an "if it compiles it works" feel. I'd much rather hack around in rust or typescript with half my brain switched off and a beer in hand and eventually get working software than hack around in javascript with half my brain switched off and a beer in hand and get more and more broken software until I eventually give up.

TypeScript sure, but Rust? Half your brain switched off? There is a middle ground between unfettered madness and the Rust compiler's strict regime. Maybe try Elm.

Yes, really. I've found Rust to be the easiest language to use while cognitively impaired (i.e. drunk) because the compiler can maintain all of the invariants that my conscious mind would need to manually maintain in any other* language.

*: There are simpler FP languages that can offer a similar experience, but they come with their drawbacks: I don't think I'd want to set up OCaml on Windows under such a state

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