Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009) • Hacker News Board

Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#211

Post by willguest » Sat, Sep 28, 2024, 4:31 PM UTC

verisimi wrote: post #196

willguest wrote: post #83

Given that the vast majority of people go to work to earn money for businesses that exist either to exploit natural resources or appreciate in value in the eyes of an economic system that prioritizes increasing capital valuations above all else, including human dignity, long-term survival and the life of other species, I would say we're already there. Talking about a dystopian future is a convenient way to assuade ou…

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Doubt is not a strategy and nay-saying rarely moves a conversation forward.

My comment was not intended to illicit the abdication of responsibility - quite the reverse.

Where was my petitioning? Your response is combative, seemingly intended to be personally offensive and built on a straw-man argument, likely the result of a multitude of others treating your opinions like crap. I'm not them...

You are absolutely right, agency and the realisation of it is a key component to shifting us out of this mess. I put significant daily effort into building an alternative kind of personal existence, at significant personal cost. I attempt to carry as much of this as I can since I recognise my own complicity in this mess.

Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#212

Post by _yb2s » Sat, Sep 28, 2024, 4:37 PM UTC

363874844 wrote: post #210

_yb2s wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also… maybe he achieved his purpose? Most people have read his books, and it helped generate a widespread aversion to authoritarianism… actually preventing it from happening in the USA and Britain. Many countries nowadays do have societies and governments that look a lot like 1984.

Did it really though? Ideological censorship has been on the rise for awhile. Books might only be occasionally banned but that's because their relevance in the modern zeitgeist has waned. The privatization of the public square has nonetheless meant that moderation of communication has become widespread and politically charged.

I didn't claim Orwell had universally eliminated all traces authoritarianism... it is rising in popularity right now. Only that it may have shifted things enough to keep us from literally living in a 1984-esque society nowadays... enough so that people in this thread and the article above are saying Orwell was "wrong."

Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#213

Post by _yb2s » Sat, Sep 28, 2024, 4:39 PM UTC

scarecrowbob wrote: post #207

bdowling wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, most people pretended to read Animal Farm and 1984 in middle school and haven’t thought about them since. They didn’t understand them at the time, and they don’t see the similar manipulations going on in today’s society.

I agree. _Animal Farm_ was taught to me by my capitalist and authoritarian teachers as an anti-communist screed. The problem with the farm is that the pigs end up being capitalists, though I have never seen or heard of the text being taught to children as an anti-capitalist text. This culture does a very good job of assuming that the field of possibilities can easily and quickly be reduced to two choices and, further…

It's neither anti-capitalist nor anti-communist, just anti-authoritarian.

Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#214

Post by everybodyknows » Sat, Sep 28, 2024, 4:42 PM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #176

seabombs wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bit of an aside, it was fun to notice the Australian references in the comic. Surprises me still to see something Australian on the "regular" internet.

> the Australian references I read the comic. Which Aus refs?

"orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy"?

These are unknown to most Americans.

Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#215

Post by BoingBoomTschak » Sat, Sep 28, 2024, 4:46 PM UTC

alecco wrote: post #129

Given the current pro-war propaganda all over the place combined with the creeping cost of living, I think Nineteen Eighty-Four is becoming more prescient than Brave New World.

1984 can't be more prescient than a book that has already become reality in most of the world that matters (culture, art, science, influence wise). If you don't see that hedonism and general moral decay has become the overwhelming norm, you're probably part of it.

1984's surveillance may be here, but the brute force is only reserved for the rare nails sticking out; if those haven't already gone crazy from surviving in the sane asylum.

Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#216

Post by robotresearcher » Sat, Sep 28, 2024, 4:46 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #35

hshshshsvsv wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congrats. You brainwashed yourself into believing only certain class of people can run the country. Founding fathers would be proud.

I think it's fair to say the "why not inject yourself with bleach!" people shouldn't be running the show while there's a class of people who do what people tell them without questioning whether it's a good idea. People in power have a responsibility not to suggest things that would kill people. That isn't a high bar.

You make a case against stupid and irresponsible people that I agree with completely.

Entertainers are not necessarily these things.

Just like lawyers - presidents are often lawyers - are not necessarily brilliant paragons.

Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#217

Post by willguest » Sat, Sep 28, 2024, 4:56 PM UTC

specproc wrote: post #173

TacticalCoder wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given that the vast majority of people go to work to earn money for businesses that exist either to exploit natural resources ... Or for governments, doing government jobs that produce absolutely nothing of value and force people to waste a big chunk of their lives on administrative tasks...

I come from a town where the biggest employer is the state in a few different forms. I think it's entirely valid for the government to keep them all busy 9-5, salaried and pensioned. Main function of the state IMO. I don't fear government, I fear the lack of it.

This doesn't deserve to be downvoted, it is very legitimate point.

I think there is a role for public organisation, with political groups being one type. I am, however, critical of the prevailing agenda, since they often exist in a system where money can play a big role in deciding which priorities rise to the top.

I am not sure that politics plays such a central role as it used or as many people assume. Our society today seems to be divided functionally... we answer to many bosses, some economic, some political, some technological, and so on.

For me the more/less gov't debate misses the important points. It is the incentives, mechanism and processes that determine their value. I think you are referring to maintain order and keeping the peace - valuable functions, but made more necessary when people are under such strain in their daily lives.

Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#218

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 28, 2024, 4:56 PM UTC

_yb2s wrote: post #165

tehnub wrote: post #38

People make too much of what Orwell supposedly feared may happen some day. He was writing about stuff the Soviet and British governments were doing in his time, and in particular, imagined what Soviet rule over Britain may look like. Assigning this philosophy to him and criticizing him for it seems unfair.

Also… maybe he achieved his purpose? Most people have read his books, and it helped generate a widespread aversion to authoritarianism… actually preventing it from happening in the USA and Britain. Many countries nowadays do have societies and governments that look a lot like 1984.

[deleted]

Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#219

Post by verisimi » Sat, Sep 28, 2024, 5:04 PM UTC

zafka wrote: post #206

verisimi wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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I have lived in South Florida, close to the Atlantic ocean for close to 40 years. In the time I have lived here, the insect populations have noticeably dropped. I have also queried relatives from the midwest. It used to be every summer your car would get covered with dead bugs, not so any more. As for plastics in the ocean, every time I go to the beach I see a lot of macro plastics.

Thank you for your personal testimony. It's good to hear that in your experience it seems that the insect populations really have dropped. Of course, there may be other reasons - eg if there are highways where it used to be small roads, you would expect insects to stay clear of the area. Also, litter you can see, is not microplastics - you can't see the microplastics.... But they are there! Apparently.

Re: Amusing Ourselves to Death (2009)

#220

Post by 0_____0 » Sat, Sep 28, 2024, 5:05 PM UTC

everybodyknows wrote: post #214

throwaway2037 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Australian references I read the comic. Which Aus refs?

"orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy"? These are unknown to most Americans.

Isn't that a reference to Brave New World?