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Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

innocenceproject.org

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Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#211

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

kelthuzad wrote: post #205
slibhb wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't misunderstand or misrepresent anything. Your argument, and The Innocence Project's, seems to be that a lack of physical evidence tying the accused to the crime scene constitutes reasonable doubt. I disagree, and so did the jury. > When it comes to fundamental principles of criminal law like "reasonable doubt" your subjective opinion is irrelevant, what matters is what objectively creates reasonable doubt. Th…

>I didn't misunderstand or misrepresent anything. Your argument, and The Innocence Project's, seems to be that a lack of physical evidence tying the accused to the crime scene constitutes reasonable doubt. I disagree, and so did the jury. Wrong. The point isn't that the mere absence of physical evidence tying the accused to the crime scene inherently constitutes reasonable doubt. Rather, the argument is that the pres…

> Rather, the argument is that the presence of substantial forensic evidence at the crime scene that explicitly does not match the accused introduces significant reasonable doubt.

Right, and this argument is just obviously wrong. The existence of forensic evidence which doesn't match the accused just proves that people other than the accused were in the victim's house at some point. It doesn't in any way contradict the hypothesis that the accused was also there.

It would be a different story if there were something like a bloody fingerprint, or other forensic evidence which could be presumed to come from only the real perpetrator. But there wasn't. (Although I can understand if you got the impression that there was from the way people talk about this case!)

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#212

Post by ljsprague »

frostburg wrote: post #197
sam1r wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This is an abuse of statistics, because you're not considering the likelyhood that a random 15-time felon killed someone, but the likelyhood that a specific 15-time felon that was accused of killing a specific person actually did it. If you were trying to pick a realistic scapegoat he would have been a great candidate.

>If you were trying to pick a realistic scapegoat he would have been a great candidate.

It also helps if the scapegoat had the victims property in his car.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#213

Post by bombcar »

CSMastermind wrote: post #175
diogenes_atx wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As stated in the article written by the legal scholars at the Innocence Project: > "There is no reliable evidence proving that Marcellus Williams committed the crime for which he is scheduled to be executed on Sept. 24. The State destroyed or corrupted the evidence that could conclusively prove his innocence and the available DNA and other forensic crime-scene evidence does not match him." DNA evidence is based on pr…

It's sad to me that the Innocence Project, instead of being a neutral third party investigating and then pushing back against wrongful convictions, have just become an all out 'stop the death penalty' advocacy group. Ultimately I think this undermines their cause and hurts their ability to save truly innocent people.

This is the real issue. Either the death penalty is wrong in all cases, even when it’s brutally obvious that the person is guilty of heinous crimes, or it is simply a matter of taste when it should be applied, like seasoning. The argument against executing someone should stem from the first not the second, even though the second is much easier to play in the media.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#214

Post by jasonlotito »

sparrish wrote: post #149
slibhb wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like pretty strong evidence to me!

[flagged]

> In possession of the stolen items given to him by one of the witnesses and 2 criminal witnesses with a history of lying who, if the defendant is convicted, will earn a reward, said that he confessed to the robbery and murder.

Man, you have low standards to just off someone.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#215

Post by nemothekid »

slibhb wrote: post #187
nemothekid wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unfortunate that a lot of the messaging has shifted to he's innocent, where I believe the right message (and far less viral message), is the government has not shown enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty is warranted. I don't believe in the death penalty because I don't think the state should have the authority to execute citizens and even moreso when a very high bar of culpability has…

> I believe the right message (and far less viral message), is the government has not shown enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty is warranted. The jury makes that determination after being locked in a room and forced to hear both sides and all the evidence. How much of the evidence are you aware of? What The Innocence Project posted? This thread is full of people who are anti-death penalty…

>How much of the evidence are you aware of?

I'm aware of the evidence - the lack of direct evidence is why I'm arguing against the death penalty. Again, I don't think the guy should be set free as it's credible he committed the murder. I'm against the state generally, and especially when there's no direct evidence, executing a defendant.

>This thread is full of people who are anti-death penalty who don't think some guy should be executed. > That's hardly a surprise, but it has nothing to do with the evidence presented by the state.

Again, call me a "small government" freak, but I think the cases in when the state should be allowed to execute someone is vanishingly small. I don't think anyone should live in a state that is allowed to execute someone based entirely on testimony.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#216

Post by wizzwizz4 »

Nathanba wrote: post #191
anonzzzies wrote: post #57

Still not sure with so many of the (esp right leaning) in the US claiming to be christian, can also accept this as a punishment. But I get nonsense begets more nonsense.

I think even as a non-christian and especially if you comment like this you should know the absolute minimum about christianity: that the death penalty is obviously in the bible and commanded by God plenty of times

There's also testimony of God overturning / fulfilling prior commandments (Matthew 5:17–21, Acts 10:9–16). The Bible contains a lot of laws and punishments that aren't respected in the United States: selective quoting doesn't strike me as a particularly compelling argument.

There's also testimony of Jesus disrupting an instance of capital punishment (John 8:3–11). There may have been procedural issues in that case, of course – for example, no accusers are said to have claimed witness to the crime itself, which was legally required for an execution – but Jesus points this out after the mob has dispersed, not before, and many Christians interpret that verdict more generally.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#217

Post by mercutio2 »

tristan957 wrote: post #137
ctxc wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe there are heinous crimes that do. Both fitting the crime and as a deterrent.

The US has more violent crime than other Western countries, so as a deterrent, it does not work. Perhaps instead of wasting money on death penalty appeals and killing innocent people, we should think about how we as a country can overhaul the prison system and our societal structures.

It's extremely difficult to compare crime statistics that don't involve death. There's under reporting right and left, and there are classification problems.

With that said, I don't think it's true that the US has, per capita, significantly more violent crime than the median Western country. What we have is a LOT more guns, which increase the probability that our violent crime becomes lethal.

We DO have vastly more incarceration than most other countries, though.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#218

Post by slibhb »

kelthuzad wrote: post #205
slibhb wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't misunderstand or misrepresent anything. Your argument, and The Innocence Project's, seems to be that a lack of physical evidence tying the accused to the crime scene constitutes reasonable doubt. I disagree, and so did the jury. > When it comes to fundamental principles of criminal law like "reasonable doubt" your subjective opinion is irrelevant, what matters is what objectively creates reasonable doubt. Th…

>I didn't misunderstand or misrepresent anything. Your argument, and The Innocence Project's, seems to be that a lack of physical evidence tying the accused to the crime scene constitutes reasonable doubt. I disagree, and so did the jury. Wrong. The point isn't that the mere absence of physical evidence tying the accused to the crime scene inherently constitutes reasonable doubt. Rather, the argument is that the pres…

[flagged]

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#219

Post by frostburg »

ljsprague wrote: post #212
frostburg wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an abuse of statistics, because you're not considering the likelyhood that a random 15-time felon killed someone, but the likelyhood that a specific 15-time felon that was accused of killing a specific person actually did it. If you were trying to pick a realistic scapegoat he would have been a great candidate.

>If you were trying to pick a realistic scapegoat he would have been a great candidate. It also helps if the scapegoat had the victims property in his car.

I have not reviewed the details of the case and have no opinion on actual guilt, I was commenting on a specific line of reasoning.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#220

Post by ImJamal »

I_am_uncreative wrote: post #192
ImJamal wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The burden of proof is on the state, not the accused. The state must prove beyond a reasonable doubt, the accused is not obligated to provide anything in his defense.

He openly admitted to multiple people he killed her and had her property in his possession. Do you think that it was impossible to have burden of proof prior to DNA or something?
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