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Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

theguardian.com

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Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#211

Post by gradschoolfail »

082349872349872 wrote: post #208
gradschoolfail wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pls pardon the attempt at Hebrew! I just thought that little bit of interfaith/international interjection might not detract from getting your attention. Slyly, it was a signal to my first responder (who is unusually tolerant of linguistic posing) that I identify with “whisky priests”* (Mexican, but invented by Graham Greene — while avoiding the US?) and that this was a metaphorical swig of whisky before i jump into r…

> Specifically, i wonder if anybody has tried to apply these supposedly efficient algorithms, which model states of teacher+learner, in “real life”. Here is a real life (albeit informal) example: when I was still in the Old Country, a professional trainer told me the following (translated here to the notation of [Yoshikawa et al 2018]) about his process of "tuning up" horses that someone else (usually the client them…

Thus Q -> dandiness makes Transactional Analysis compleatly dandy then?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis#Outline

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#212

Post by aebtebeten »

gradschoolfail wrote: post #211
082349872349872 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Specifically, i wonder if anybody has tried to apply these supposedly efficient algorithms, which model states of teacher+learner, in “real life”. Here is a real life (albeit informal) example: when I was still in the Old Country, a professional trainer told me the following (translated here to the notation of [Yoshikawa et al 2018]) about his process of "tuning up" horses that someone else (usually the client them…

Thus Q -> dandiness makes Transactional Analysis compleatly dandy then? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis#Outline

If "I'm OK, You're OK" leads to a generation[0] who

...are grown-up children, utterly irresponsible; not immoral but unmoral; they “please to live and live to please” themselves. They do not realise that their actions may prove costly to others and therefore do not count the cost. They are children of impulse not of calculation. [1]

then TA would be completely dandy, but I kind of thought the initial ideal, at least, was that people would attempt to stay in AA Straight Talk modes. Should we judge Transactional Analysis by what Berne wrote (TA as antimeme), or by what everyone read or claimed to have read (TA as meme)?

"...your real dandy is not an ordinary man and must not be judged by common standards. He stands outside and above the ordinary rules of life and conduct; he has not any conscience, and questions of morality do not affect him. All that is for us to do in viewing such a one as D’Orsay is to weigh his physical and mental gifts, and to examine the uses to which he put them, to look to the opportunities which were given to him and the advantage which he took of them." [1]

Dandyism as sociopathy? It certainly has a pocketbook-dependent valence: poor dandies are trashy; rich ones, classy.

> I don't play accurately —any one can play accurately— but I play with wonderful expression. —AM

[0] cf the Xenophobe's Guide to the Americans, which claims this behaviour wasn't just the 1970s, it's the national character.

[1] https://www.gutenberg.org/files/56581/56581-h/56581-h.htm

EDIT: I prefer https://www.gutenberg.org/files/56581/56581-h/images/illus5.... (who needs a marshall's baton when you have a hunting crop?), but have to admit D'O---y may even have inspired a predecessor of our age's bobbleheads: https://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/object/1221047

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#213

Post by gradschoolfail »

aebtebeten wrote: post #212
gradschoolfail wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thus Q -> dandiness makes Transactional Analysis compleatly dandy then? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis#Outline

If "I'm OK, You're OK" leads to a generation[0] who ...are grown-up children, utterly irresponsible; not immoral but unmoral; they “please to live and live to please” themselves. They do not realise that their actions may prove costly to others and therefore do not count the cost. They are children of impulse not of calculation. [1] then TA would be completely dandy, but I kind of thought the initial ideal, at least,…

Okay, i interpreted your previous writing on TA to mean that TA-guided attempts to stay in ST mode would still be unstable towards insanity.

as a contrived example to argue that point, the advantage has been adapted into YC’s metric for equity transferees.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9239203

In order to keep things simple, lets forget abt memes, because i’m more interested in the failure modes of Straight Talk no BS OG TA.

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#214

Post by 082349872349872 »

gradschoolfail wrote: post #213
aebtebeten wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If "I'm OK, You're OK" leads to a generation[0] who ...are grown-up children, utterly irresponsible; not immoral but unmoral; they “please to live and live to please” themselves. They do not realise that their actions may prove costly to others and therefore do not count the cost. They are children of impulse not of calculation. [1] then TA would be completely dandy, but I kind of thought the initial ideal, at least,…

Okay, i interpreted your previous writing on TA to mean that TA-guided attempts to stay in ST mode would still be unstable towards insanity. as a contrived example to argue that point, the advantage has been adapted into YC’s metric for equity transferees. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9239203 In order to keep things simple, lets forget abt memes, because i’m more interested in the failure modes of Straight Ta…

while I (attempt to) reread Berne, here's a possibly interesting Victorian trichotomy (probably in different terms than I give here):

attributes - things you were born with

accomplishments - things you have via practice (paid the time)

acquisitions - things you have via purchase (paid the cash)

[and I'm calling Altman's anecdote weak sauce; I agree it's hustle not hack. Lagniappe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c412hqucHKw ]

EDIT: showing up on the client's doorstep has been done by salescritters since the day after commission was invented. A hack involves exploiting a property of a system that no one had previously realised exploitable. (Note here that despite popular usage, I only consider most computer crackers to be airquote "hackers".)

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#215

Post by 082349872349872 »

gradschoolfail wrote: post #213
aebtebeten wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If "I'm OK, You're OK" leads to a generation[0] who ...are grown-up children, utterly irresponsible; not immoral but unmoral; they “please to live and live to please” themselves. They do not realise that their actions may prove costly to others and therefore do not count the cost. They are children of impulse not of calculation. [1] then TA would be completely dandy, but I kind of thought the initial ideal, at least,…

Okay, i interpreted your previous writing on TA to mean that TA-guided attempts to stay in ST mode would still be unstable towards insanity. as a contrived example to argue that point, the advantage has been adapted into YC’s metric for equity transferees. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9239203 In order to keep things simple, lets forget abt memes, because i’m more interested in the failure modes of Straight Ta…

The failure mode of Straight Talk OG TA (according to Berne) is that it's not a universal sol'n (at best a Kolmogorov Option?):

> The somber picture presented in Parts I and II of this book, in which human life is mainly a process of filling in time until the arrival of death, or Santa Claus, with very little choice, if any, of what kind of business one is going to transact during the long wait, is a commonplace but not the final answer. For certain fortunate people there is something which transcends all classifications of behavior, and that is awareness; something which rises above the programming of the past, and that is spontaneity; and something that is more rewarding than games, and that is intimacy. But all three of these may be frightening and even perilous to the unprepared. Perhaps they are better off as they are, seeking their solutions in popular techniques of social action, such as "togetherness." This may mean that there is no hope for the human race, but there is hope for individual members of it.

(IIUC after hearing "all three of these may be frightening and even perilous to the unprepared", Michael Scott would be likely to retort "that's what she said")

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#216

Post by 082349872349872 »

gradschoolfail wrote: post #172
082349872349872 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So that no rabbit would sign up in the first place. I liked Добро пожаловать, или Посторонним вход воспрещён (1964), in which the summer camp director plays a very soviet version of an Eric Berne Transactional Analysis* game, "Everything I do, I do it for you". According to wikipedia, it's infamous in russian for the lines: — Children, remember! You all are the owners of the camp. [All of] you! What do you all [the…

[PS] B Russell, In Praise of Idleness

Aha, I'd been remembering types I/II but forgotten about III — now that I'm reminded, it's time to rewatch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPPpjU1UeAo .

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#217

Post by gradschoolfail »

082349872349872 wrote: post #215
gradschoolfail wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, i interpreted your previous writing on TA to mean that TA-guided attempts to stay in ST mode would still be unstable towards insanity. as a contrived example to argue that point, the advantage has been adapted into YC’s metric for equity transferees. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9239203 In order to keep things simple, lets forget abt memes, because i’m more interested in the failure modes of Straight Ta…

The failure mode of Straight Talk OG TA (according to Berne) is that it's not a universal sol'n (at best a Kolmogorov Option?): > The somber picture presented in Parts I and II of this book, in which human life is mainly a process of filling in time until the arrival of death, or Santa Claus, with very little choice, if any, of what kind of business one is going to transact during the long wait, is a commonplace but…

Im probably still obsessed with having you riff more along the outlines of the footnote here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41481141

insanity-inducing games are very intriguing! for the purposes of formalization

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#218

Post by gradschoolfail »

082349872349872 wrote: post #216
gradschoolfail wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[PS] B Russell, In Praise of Idleness

Aha, I'd been remembering types I/II but forgotten about III — now that I'm reminded, it's time to rewatch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPPpjU1UeAo .

Currently trying to read^W skim Pynchon’s buddy Farina to get an 1960s inside outsider’s perspective on that..

>the second kind is capable of indefinite extension

Rather i took the hint from here. But his third class does seem to have some overlap with [my intended] type IIIs. E.g. (esp?) technicals from the cadet branches who feel (attribute guilt? stereotype threat?) the need to do some legacy-laundering..

(Compare with the social origins of SPJ)

Stronger connection to founder mode is that YC is in their own words (having a hard time locating exact quote) modelled after Harvard. So while the coarse-grained view from the POV of hoi polloi does look like your music video, our “local deities” were inside-outsiders, once upon a time in New England (as well as Ithacan transplants, for a couple of them)

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#219

Post by 082349872349872 »

gradschoolfail wrote: post #217
082349872349872 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The failure mode of Straight Talk OG TA (according to Berne) is that it's not a universal sol'n (at best a Kolmogorov Option?): > The somber picture presented in Parts I and II of this book, in which human life is mainly a process of filling in time until the arrival of death, or Santa Claus, with very little choice, if any, of what kind of business one is going to transact during the long wait, is a commonplace but…

Im probably still obsessed with having you riff more along the outlines of the footnote here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41481141 insanity-inducing games are very intriguing! for the purposes of formalization

Sorry, all I'd meant was that Berne's typical games annoy me in exactly the same way spam or indiscreet advertising does (I have a lot of sympathy for the purported motives of the aliens encountered in Blindsight) so recognising the start of one and then (contra St G, "the ebbing tide"?) tuning out until it recedes, leaving one's kernel of sanity undissolved (and perhaps even lotus-like, letting the muddy vibe just bead up and roll off?), really helps in the equanimity department.

I'll be low on bandwidth for the next few days, but will try to think of insanity inducing games. The glass bead game being good for pareidolia, I could imagine that if one played it to the point of seeing everything connected to everything else might lead to institutionalisation about as often as to enlightenment?

(Mark Vonnegut's experience as detailed in The Eden Express (1975) suggest that mixing psychedelics with stress is an insanity-inducing game)

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#220

Post by 082349872349872 »

gradschoolfail wrote: post #218
082349872349872 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aha, I'd been remembering types I/II but forgotten about III — now that I'm reminded, it's time to rewatch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPPpjU1UeAo .

Currently trying to read^W skim Pynchon’s buddy Farina to get an 1960s inside outsider’s perspective on that.. > the second kind is capable of indefinite extension Rather i took the hint from here. But his third class does seem to have some overlap with [my intended] type IIIs. E.g. (esp?) technicals from the cadet branches who feel (attribute guilt? stereotype threat?) the need to do some legacy-laundering.. (Compar…

OK, technicals, even cadet technicals, don't fall into my type III, precisely because they tend to stay active (although then they choose projects by interest instead of profitability).

For me, type III starts when one can not only stay in bed all monday and tuesday, but even go sailing across the pacific, without impacting one's income stream in any way — and is confirmed when one actually does so. ("Did nothing in particular / And did it very well")

The circles which I find are enriched in these type IIIs are also very geek-poor.

I think HN's stereotype of financial independence is of someone who's made a successful exit, but (or is this just my parochialism talking?) imx most of my type IIIs were born with it or married into it.

(BTW, I have trad Sand Hill experience, and therefore only the haziest idea of YC. I've been holding off on another, "riding herd", model of what I suspect may be a different sol'n to bigco hires than founder mode, because it'll take a great deal of explanation, but maybe if you're willing to explain the distinctive parts of YC to me I can attempt to explain why I think it's possible bigco hires could very well have been successful under a two-decades-of-sales CEO but tank under leadership that came up through engineering — if so, there's another [imnsho better] alternative to founder mode)

EDIT: http://www.pynchon.pomona.edu/uncollected/farina.html

> On weeknights they had to be inside these places by something like 11 P.M., at which time all the doors were locked.

I'm not even close to that old, and I've been kicked out of a women's dorm because they were locking the doors.

Compare the concierge's (knowing but ironically ignorant) smile, at Lydia's dorm in Наваждение(1965)!

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