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A post by Guido van Rossum removed for violating Python community guidelines

discuss.python.org

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Re: A post by Guido van Rossum removed for violating Python community guidelines

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you understand but just don't agree? Can we help in increasing understanding on why people have certain opinions in this topic? Or do you kinda know why and are expressing a kind of disagreement and disapproval of holding the opinions?

Yes, please help me understand why this is a big deal! A committee that was chosen by a community decided to remove a post. It looks like the removal was well within their authority. If the community disagrees with the committee, they can move discussion to another venue, elect a new committee, and so on, no? None of this adversely affects the performance or reliability of software written in python.

Yup, and while I don't know the overlap between the committees, it seems like the CoC committee gave a recommendation to the Steering Committee, and the Steering Committee acted on the findings, and it wasn't just an instant ban hammer on Tim either.

Hiding Guido's comment I could see being controversial, but I also believe allowing relitigation or reinsertion of harmful drama in governance discussions as being disruptive. Hiding the comment wasn't punitive.

Also the project shouldn't go into freeze mode because a valuable contributor is doing time for a crime, such a practice would be super destructive to the project. It'd basically give filibuster power to any contributor of sufficient 'clout' to derail and delay any steering committee decisions indefinitely

Re: A post by Guido van Rossum removed for violating Python community guidelines

#212
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You are making a general point, but does it apply specifically? Here's the Python Code of Conduct for communication on official Python forums, and comm+behavior at official Python events: https://policies.python.org/python.org/code-of-conduct What specific items do you disagree with? * The top section "Our Community" is just general stuff like "be respectful." Is that a problem? * The list of "Inappropriate Behavior"…

> You are making a general point, but does it apply specifically?

Yes. What you are missing is the separate "Enforcement Procedures" section: https://policies.python.org/python.org/code-of-conduct/Enfor... . Some quotes:

> If the incident occurred outside the community, but a community member's mental health or physical safety may be negatively impacted if no action is taken, the incident may be in scope.

IOW: they hold themselves free to go after people for stating political opinions entirely outside of any Python-related context, if someone else in a Python space deems those opinions sufficiently traumatizing.

> Does this pose a safety risk? Does the behavior put a person's physical safety at risk? Will this incident severely negatively impact someone's mental health?

Again, getting "triggered" by something is considered a matter of "safety". Some people are apparently fragile, and not responsible for their own actions, while others have a moral duty not to offend them.

> A person who makes a report should receive a follow-up email stating what action was taken in response to the report. If the work group decided no response was needed, they should provide an email explaining why it was not a Code of Conduct violation. Reports that are not made in good faith (such as "reverse sexism" or "reverse racism") may receive no response.

IOW: you have no recourse if people discriminate against you for being white or for being male. Not only that, but proposing that such a thing occurred is considered inherently "bad faith". And they will stuff terms in your mouth for this that you didn't actually use. [0] But not only that, when I was banned, they held up such an argument (by the way, the accusation that I even made such an argument was completely false) as itself a Code of Conduct violation, despite no language in that document which could possibly support such a claim.

Speaking of which, they don't even follow these procedures if they're inconvenient. See the "Follow up with the reported person" section? None of that bears any resemblance to how I was treated. (Not that it could, because I did nothing wrong and my "behaviour" had no reasonable "negative impact". [1])

There are tons of other "cultural" aspects you seem to be unaware of here. For example, defenders of the Work Group and their policies will constantly bring up (without naming names, as if anyone were unaware) the Adria Richards "Donglegate" incident from PyCon 2013. This is always described as a cautionary tale about what might happen to others like Richards without their CoC enforcement. It is never mentioned that Richards eavesdropped on a private conversation, took offense to a joke not intended to cause harm to anyone (and not even jokingly proposing any harmful idea!), and then ignored all the incident reporting procedures in the newly written PyCon CoC, opting instead to skip straight to social media for a round of public shaming.

[0] It's people with this political position who use the terms "reverse sexism" and "reverse racism"; people who correctly recognize the fact that racism can victimize white people (and be directly the fault of people who are not white, acting fully on their own agency) also correctly just call it "racism". Similarly for sexism.

[1] If you don't take that at face value, you are welcome to read my own backup of my posts related to the banning: https://zahlman.github.io/dpo_archive/ .

Re: A post by Guido van Rossum removed for violating Python community guidelines

#213
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unnecessary politics in certain tech spheres is still a norm. For example, here's GNOME the desktop being concerned about climate change: https://discourse.gnome.org/t/question-to-candidates-the-boa...

[flagged]

A programming language is a tool. It should not have an official stance on political issues, whether you agree with it or not.

Re: A post by Guido van Rossum removed for violating Python community guidelines

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Would you feel the same way if the message was "make America great again"? And yes I did remove python from a big private repo and will argue against it at work when the question arises.

[dead]

Re: A post by Guido van Rossum removed for violating Python community guidelines

#215
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

What does reverse racism mean?

There exists an argument that people who are not white are, in fact, capable of saying or doing things which tend to discriminate against white people; and furthermore that such speech and action is harmful and morally offensive.

"reverse racism" is a term used by people who find that position disagreeable or inconvenient, to mislabel, misrepresent and mock it.

The argument is not at all "far right"; it's centrist, and obvious. But certain extremist identity-based ideologues have manage to sell that nonsense with their propaganda based on the label. Occasionally you will see people who don't know any better use the term unironically, because of the dominance its derogatory use has achieved; but serious opposition to so-called "progressive" identity politics does not actually use the term.

Re: A post by Guido van Rossum removed for violating Python community guidelines

#216
post #9

These are not "Python community guidelines". These are the guidelines of a tyrannical clique who have grabbed power and control the access to the infrastructure. They abuse their power by banning any opposition and then using said infrastructure to libel and defame their opponents. Google already fired one or two of them. I do not know what is required to restore the health of Python.

>Google already fired one or two of them.

I would appreciate more information about this.

Re: A post by Guido van Rossum removed for violating Python community guidelines

#217

My spidey sense first got tingling a few years ago when the Python powers decided they were going to rename their git master branch to something else. Caused them unnecessary work and to this day it's not certain any developer or user actually asked for it. The word has multiple meanings of course; yet felt like a symbolic gesture to alleviate guilt totally unrelated to Python. I didn't complain without a dog in the…

See also: https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/...

Re: A post by Guido van Rossum removed for violating Python community guidelines

#218
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That the people implying they were monsters were the actual monsters.

[flagged]

> I don't think a single soul implied they were monsters. There's nothing wrong with having your branch named "master" if, coincidently, that's what you have.

It takes no effort to find arguments such as https://medium.com/let-s-begin/how-to-rename-your-master-bra... .

Github themselves tried to push the change on people, and reporting on the issue used phrasing describing the original choice as "no longer appropriate" as if this were some authoritative consensus (e.g. https://www.theserverside.com/feature/Why-GitHub-renamed-its... ). Github's change was disruptive because repositories created on GitHub wouldn't work properly locally in Git (depending on various details) and this was happening to users with very little technical understanding and no reason to care about the underlying political issue.

But aside from that, it's very obvious that many people think there's "something wrong with" using master as the default name. If they didn't, there never would have been an issue in the first place because nobody would have proposed to change it.

There is nobody out there advocating for the change without bringing up some strange hand-waving argument about colonialism. Not a single one of these people can demonstrate how using the name "master" actually causes harm - because it doesn't. But hordes of them are willing to argue for making the change anyway.

> However it's weird if you say master is the "one true name" and it HAS to be master.

Nobody says this. They say that they don't want others pushing (or literally pull-requesting, in many cases) changes on them for ideological reasons that have nothing to do with the business of their project.

> Like, why do you care? That's odd. That's what some people point out.

No, there's nothing strange about it at all. What is "odd" is the rhetorical strategy of trying to shame people for a benign choice, gaslight that they're the ones being insistent and ideological, and then gaslight that no such shaming is occurring.

> For some people changing master -> main isn't a nothing burger, it's actively harmful.

No, what's "actively harmful" is the idea that people should be compelled to change things because outsiders don't like them (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entryism). Also the compatibility break mentioned above.

Re: A post by Guido van Rossum removed for violating Python community guidelines

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Unfortunately a few years later I can say the opposite. It's your contention that people getting up in arms about not changing the name of the 'master' branch specifically look good now, with hindsight? Can't say I agree.

You’ve reframed the disagreement about unnecessary work as “up in arms.” They look like sane folks who recommended not doing purely symbolic work. Something substantial perhaps, say promoting under-represented folks within psf would be something. You can’t eat branch names.

For what it's worth, David Mertz would agree with you (https://discuss.python.org/t/why-im-leaving-discuss-python-o...).

He got kicked out, too.

Re: A post by Guido van Rossum removed for violating Python community guidelines

#220
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad he's stepped down. His opinion matters to be sure, but python needs to be a community developed language. He's a smart guy, and he matters still to the python community. There was a tremendous amount of frustration around the walrus operator, which led to him stepping down.

It was happening a lot under Guido too, but IMO, Python was arguably a better language (at least in some ways) 10, 15, even 20 years ago. Python's three super powers were readability, simplicity, and a vast standard library that negated the need for most projects to seek out third party modules. All three of those have declined. It's less readable than it used to be, it's definitely more complicated (not just complex…

> All three of those have declined. It's less readable than it used to be, it's definitely more complicated (not just complex, complicated), and the standard library is declining rapidly in relevance as it ages.

I find it much more readable, and more importantly more expressive. Certain new features are missteps IMO, but I just don't use them. But more importantly, the language has been moving away from cryptic %-encodings and other C idioms.

As for the standard library, that was already happening for a long time, and is inevitable. The world has fundamentally changed. In Python's heyday it was much harder to download and install and use a third-party library, so a rich standard library was an asset. Now it's full of specialized code that handles obscure and increasingly irrelevant data formats; multiple overlapping hacks for binary data; terrible and confusing date support; awkward interfaces that haven't stood the test of time (particularly all the networking stuff; Requests is one of the most downloaded PyPI packages, along with its dependencies which are probably almost never downloaded for any other reason); etc.

Lots of people still seem to think that the 2->3 migration was a mistake. They couldn't be more wrong. The old way of handling "strings" was abysmal, and spit in the face of the Zen. Error messages were confusing and implicit conversions abounded.

Also, just for the record: Guido van Rossum was in favour of the walrus operator. In fact, he co-authored the PEP (https://peps.python.org/pep-0572/), along with Tim Peters.

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