The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community • Hacker News Board

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#211

Post by benreesman » Fri, Aug 02, 2024, 5:24 PM UTC

Filligree wrote: post #203

phil21 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mad rush to as quickly abolish religious practices in mainstream U.S. culture without any form of societal replacement is puzzling to me. I am no fan of religion having grown up in an exceedingly religious environment. But it was always completely obvious to me even as a child that the primary purpose of religion was to form local communities and have others with shared values to rely on. We seem to be doing it w…

> The mad rush to as quickly abolish religious practices in mainstream U.S. culture without any form of societal replacement is puzzling to me. > I am no fan of religion having grown up in an exceedingly religious environment. But it was always completely obvious to me even as a child that the primary purpose of religion was to form local communities and have others with shared values to rely on. It is a problem, but…

It seems in 2024 that one simply chooses their religion. Arbitrary GDP growth in a finite environment isn’t true either, it’s just another convenient fiction. More recently the AI doom/effective altruist community has just made some hypothetical AI thing into a god. Even rational things like environmentalism and social progressivism have taken on many of the trappings of a religion.

It might be time to start judging which faith-based organizing principles produce the best outcomes.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#212

Post by AftHurrahWinch » Fri, Aug 02, 2024, 5:24 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #162

philip1209 wrote: post #66

The books the authors cite are great and worth reading. Some personal observations: - The USA lacks a unified cultural identity now. There are lots of reasons for this. But, it's considered taboo to express a love of the USA - which hurts our community + culture. - People put a lot of effort into work, and work is becoming more transactional. No more "life-long employment with the buddies" kind of situation. - Americ…

> it's considered taboo to express a love of the USA American here. First-generation immigrant. Came from Germany at age 5. This misses a crucial part of the problem. It is considered taboo to express a love of the USA in certain social circles . In others, it is considered taboo not to express a love of the USA. The problem is that the two sides have very different ideas of what "loving the USA" means. Among the fir…

Really great comment! You noted:

> The problem is that the two sides have very different ideas of what "loving the USA" means. Among the first group (liberals) the USA is envisioned as an inclusive melting pot where all are welcome.

Have you had the chance to talk with a 3rd group who believe that the US is malignant and think that the most moral action they can take is to undermine the state?

I think there is even an American tradition of that; lots of US students are assigned excerpts from Thoreau's Walden or Civil Disobedience and from one perspective, those texts are arguments that because the US permitted slavery it was malignant and should be 'starved', of our taxes, labor, and participation.

I can't and wouldn't argue that Thoreau was wrong to protest slavery by any means necessary, but I also hope that the US doesn't embrace the sort of widespread self-sabotage I see in European protest movements.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#213

Post by trimethylpurine » Fri, Aug 02, 2024, 5:25 PM UTC

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #115

kelseyfrog wrote: post #82

Well, yes, we've doubled down on mediating social interactions through economic relationships. Most of the interactions adults have in their lives are with or in the framing of economic relations. Homes, are being invaded with tablets and mobile devices which bring along with them framing interactions as economic relations through ad and consumer frames. Workplaces are inherently settings of economic relations, and t…

This is both a loss in and of itself, and is also a rational response by people within this system. Everything MUST make money because everyone is FUCKING broke. People don't monetize their hobbies for fun, they do it because they're barely scraping by and the notion of spending time on things that don't make money is so beaten out of us that it feels wrong to do it. We can't go anywhere without spending money, we ca…

I'm wondering if it comes with the size of the city. Everyone wanting to live in the same place at once is a logistical nightmare that won't be solved in our lifetime. One can compromise; a medium sized city with rapid growth offers high pay, low cost lifestyles that don't rely on genius politicians to have the answers. Such a city simply faces smaller, more solvable problems. Parking is free everywhere in at least one such city of 1M. And several others I've lived in or visited.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#214

Post by gary_0 » Fri, Aug 02, 2024, 5:26 PM UTC

kelseyfrog wrote: post #82

Well, yes, we've doubled down on mediating social interactions through economic relationships. Most of the interactions adults have in their lives are with or in the framing of economic relations. Homes, are being invaded with tablets and mobile devices which bring along with them framing interactions as economic relations through ad and consumer frames. Workplaces are inherently settings of economic relations, and t…

A lot of the things people used to do on the Internet for fun, they now do for money or "points" (or the subconscious desire to do for money if they become successful enough). In the past, things you posted online tended to get a small number of manual responses from people you had a chance of forming an actual relationship with. Now, a good deal of interaction is mediated by a corporate algorithm (or an up/downvote button). People are also a lot more aware of automated actors (ie. bots).

In general, people seem to do a lot less unstructured leisure activity and social interaction. Quantitative goals are imposed by social expectations, gamified ad-funded software, or economic anxiety.

Be sure to like and subscribe.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#215

Post by saulpw » Fri, Aug 02, 2024, 5:26 PM UTC

diputsmonro wrote: post #170

nradov wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a weird mistake among young people in thinking of Republicans versus Democrats as enemies to be shunned rather than the "loyal opposition" who just happen to have a different perspective. Becoming a political tribalist cuts out about half your social opportunities.

I respect that viewpoint and would be happy to adopt it in different times. But it's not as simple as political tribalism. For example - Several of my close friends are trans. For the last decade or so, Republicans have been viciously attacking trans people and several states are actively taking away their rights. The entire right wing media ecosystem uses every chance they can to demonize trans people in the new cul…

There are people who vote Republican in private, and they are different from those who loudly proclaim their Republicanism to everyone they encounter. It might be a shame that the private Republicans vote how they do, but that doesn't have to affect their ability to engage with trans people, or vice versa.

So I would say the problem is not the ideological divide per se, but the 'identity' politics which makes both sides openly intolerable to each other. Of course, it's problematic because trans people can't keep private in their transness at a game of cards in the way that a radical socialist could. But in modern discourse, we're all encouraged to be loud and proud in order to advance our preferred politics, instead of quiet and demure in order to foster community that transcends politics.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#216

Post by simianparrot » Fri, Aug 02, 2024, 5:27 PM UTC

Filligree wrote: post #203

phil21 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mad rush to as quickly abolish religious practices in mainstream U.S. culture without any form of societal replacement is puzzling to me. I am no fan of religion having grown up in an exceedingly religious environment. But it was always completely obvious to me even as a child that the primary purpose of religion was to form local communities and have others with shared values to rely on. We seem to be doing it w…

> The mad rush to as quickly abolish religious practices in mainstream U.S. culture without any form of societal replacement is puzzling to me. > I am no fan of religion having grown up in an exceedingly religious environment. But it was always completely obvious to me even as a child that the primary purpose of religion was to form local communities and have others with shared values to rely on. It is a problem, but…

Religion is literally false but metaphorically true. Our brain filters existence through metaphors. I’m not religious but my metaphors of understanding reality are built on a culture that was for thousands of years until the state got separated from church within my lifetime here in Norway. And it hasn’t made things better.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#217

Post by dnissley » Fri, Aug 02, 2024, 5:28 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #31

I have to assume that people leaving their home towns to work elsewhere is a huge driving factor of all of this.

Americans move less than they ever have these days: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/20/us/american-workers-movin...

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#218

Post by batshit_beaver » Fri, Aug 02, 2024, 5:28 PM UTC

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #120

philip1209 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The deeper issue is that a pessimism about our country will become self-fulfilling. So, it's not useful. I think the USA is amazing in that it attracts the most ambitious people in the world, provides relative stability for them to work and live, and that it has managed to create such a stable society given the heterogeneous nature of its culture. It has a lot of problems, but I'd much rather be here than in the comm…

Ever consider that perhaps cramming a community full of the most ambitious people in the world might have a bunch of negative consequences for that community?

Surely it has positive consequences too?

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#219

Post by AftHurrahWinch » Fri, Aug 02, 2024, 5:29 PM UTC

pfannkuchen wrote: post #205

AftHurrahWinch wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I apologize if this comes across as 'how dare you talk about pancakes when I prefer waffles', but I just want to mention that, like a lot of people, I destroyed my hearing when I was young and now I struggle to hear on busses and planes. If someone talks to me on a plane I say "Sorry, my hearing is really bad", and its really embarrassing when they respond by speaking so loudly the whole plane can hear for the rest o…

Have you considered using hearing aids?

Yes, I've tried two different hearing aids, and they were both worse than useless. They often amplified the wrong voices in the crowd, and not even consistently. It was like listening to the radio and having someone constantly changing stations.

If you've got a recommendation for one that is able to identify which voice in the crowd I want amplified, I'd appreciate it!

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#220

Post by the_snooze » Fri, Aug 02, 2024, 5:29 PM UTC

Filligree wrote: post #203

phil21 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mad rush to as quickly abolish religious practices in mainstream U.S. culture without any form of societal replacement is puzzling to me. I am no fan of religion having grown up in an exceedingly religious environment. But it was always completely obvious to me even as a child that the primary purpose of religion was to form local communities and have others with shared values to rely on. We seem to be doing it w…

> The mad rush to as quickly abolish religious practices in mainstream U.S. culture without any form of societal replacement is puzzling to me. > I am no fan of religion having grown up in an exceedingly religious environment. But it was always completely obvious to me even as a child that the primary purpose of religion was to form local communities and have others with shared values to rely on. It is a problem, but…

>How do you square that with any sort of culture that values reality?

Empiricism doesn't help you with the questions of "who are my people?" or "what matters?" You can make a legitimate case for some of religion's claims being empirically unsound, it doesn't take away from the fact that religion is very effective at giving a lot of people meaning and community, orthogonal to those specific claims.