10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023 • Hacker News Board

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#211

Post by gottorf » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 9:58 PM UTC

windowshopping wrote: post #192

pton_xd wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Republican anti-immigrant platform because it seems to me there is significant brain drain from many countries to the U.S. and that contributes to our success. Explain how unskilled illegal immigrants contribute to our success. I'm open minded but I've yet to hear anything convincing. No one is opposed to the legal immigration of skilled workers.

Why would we be opposed to unskilled immigrants? The majority of the people who came here from Europe in the 1700s and 1800s were laborers, factory workers, farmers, and other simple occupations. Why are we pulling up the ladder behind them? Did you want to freeze the US as it was circa 1950? Things change man. The US isn't forever, anymore than Rome was. You gotta stop trying to fight the current and pretending that…

> The majority of the people who came here from Europe in the 1700s and 1800s were laborers, factory workers, farmers, and other simple occupations. Why are we pulling up the ladder behind them?

The welfare state did not exist in that time, so the cost of absorbing immigration was confined to acculturation. Immigrants had to quickly start generating value or perish. The incentives are radically different now and the marginal cost to society of absorbing each additional immigrant is much higher.

US government spending as a percentage of GDP remained low single digits until WW1; it is roughly 35% today.

> You gotta stop trying to fight the current

You must also remember that the natural state of everything is decay, and the natural state of mankind in particular is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short". The current grinds everything down to sand. It is incumbent upon everyone to fight the current in the way that affords the greatest benefit to society.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#212

Post by spamizbad » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 9:58 PM UTC

gottorf wrote: post #201

labrador wrote: post #107

I support immigration and oppose the Republican anti-immigrant platform because it seems to me there is significant brain drain from many countries to the U.S. and that contributes to our success. For example, in this article is about white collar crime, it points out that many Somali-Americans were professionals back in Somalia. I'm not concerned about the crime because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency unt…

> I'm not concerned about the crime You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. The author of the article you linked to also exhorts the Somali immigrant community to not engage in crime. > because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency until the 2nd and 3rd generation is able to make it into established society. History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups…

> History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups aren't able to integrate with the host society after multiple generations, and remain ghettoized with low employment and high crime rates (vastly higher, for certain categories of crime).

I'm not sure that's true. For example, in the United States, it took numerous generations of German-Americans to fully integrate into society, with towns in Wisconsin speaking a dialect of German well into the 1940s. Despite this lack of cultural integration, these cities experienced very little crime.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#213

Post by its_ethan » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 9:59 PM UTC

epolanski wrote: post #178

kjellsbells wrote: post #137

The problem commonly skated over is that two views cam be true at once. For example: - the "Batista" regime was dictatorial and repressive. The people fought back with Castro. The first wave of people to land in Miami were essentially the moneyed class who lost everything. Unsurprisingly they hate the Castro regime and its descendents. The US government were happy to accommodate them under the guise of anti communism…

> the "Castro" regime is dictatorial and repressive. As someone whose family comes from the former Soviet union, and has friends that come from other repressive places let me tell you that this really doesn't matter. Economy and how you are doing are what matters in the day to day life of people. People really don't think about the oppression or lack of elections, they care how much they need to suffer to put food on…

They may not care about the politics, but if the politics is what contributes to the economy / shortages / difficulty in getting things like food... then the politics matter, regardless of if any given citizen is consciously aware of it.

And as a reciprocal anecdote, I have family that grew up behind the iron curtain - and they were very much aware of and knew the importance of the governments politics

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#214

Post by mensetmanusman » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 10:00 PM UTC

labrador wrote: post #107

I support immigration and oppose the Republican anti-immigrant platform because it seems to me there is significant brain drain from many countries to the U.S. and that contributes to our success. For example, in this article is about white collar crime, it points out that many Somali-Americans were professionals back in Somalia. I'm not concerned about the crime because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency unt…

Republicans are strongly anti-illegal immigration, and that appears anti-immigration to some.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#215

Post by lrem » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 10:00 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #189

torpfactory wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a very sizable number of low paying, dirty, dangerous, and/or boring jobs that we can’t find enough locals to do. Think farm hands, home care aides, meat processors, etc. Unskilled immigrants do those jobs because that’s what is available to them (I.e unskilled). If they weren’t doing those jobs, we’d have to pay significantly more for the goods and services that labor depends on. Immigrant labor is disinflat…

These jobs are low-paying because they're broadly unproductive. If some of them weren't doing these jobs, the wages paid for them at the margin would increase. We are vastly better off importing more skilled immigrants to high-income countries, compared to unskilled ones.

How can you call literally feeding the people “broadly unproductive”? It’s low margin, but you can’t have a society supporting your margins without someone doing the bottom jobs.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#216

Post by bryanlarsen » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 10:00 PM UTC

gottorf wrote: post #201

labrador wrote: post #107

I support immigration and oppose the Republican anti-immigrant platform because it seems to me there is significant brain drain from many countries to the U.S. and that contributes to our success. For example, in this article is about white collar crime, it points out that many Somali-Americans were professionals back in Somalia. I'm not concerned about the crime because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency unt…

> I'm not concerned about the crime You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. The author of the article you linked to also exhorts the Somali immigrant community to not engage in crime. > because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency until the 2nd and 3rd generation is able to make it into established society. History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups…

Crime among immigrants is largely correlated with unemployment rates. European countries with immigrant crime problems have high unemployment rates, the US does not.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#217

Post by mensetmanusman » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 10:01 PM UTC

_heimdall wrote: post #194

greenchair wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

correction: anti-illegal immigrant platform. the 3rd worlder influx of criminals is negative for the country not positive.

What is and isn't legal immigration is always a moving target. A majority of US history included open borders where it was legal for anyone to get off a boat, provide some basic info, and go on to try and make their way here. The idea of closed borders, immigration caps, etc is relatively modern and driven more by the fact that social entitlement programs cost money than a fear of dangerous people coming here.

Modern civilization has entitlements, if we get rid of entitlements, sure we can have open borders. We just can’t do both or the system collapses.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#218

Post by gottorf » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 10:02 PM UTC

spamizbad wrote: post #212

gottorf wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not concerned about the crime You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. The author of the article you linked to also exhorts the Somali immigrant community to not engage in crime. > because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency until the 2nd and 3rd generation is able to make it into established society. History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups…

> History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups aren't able to integrate with the host society after multiple generations, and remain ghettoized with low employment and high crime rates (vastly higher, for certain categories of crime). I'm not sure that's true. For example, in the United States, it took numerous generations of German-Americans to fully integrate into society, with…

Different immigrant groups have better or worse outcomes, hence my saying "some immigrant groups". The cultural distance between the English progenitors of the US to the large wave of German immigrants in the 1800s is not as great as, say, that of Turkish immigrants to Germany post-WW2, or Syrian immigrants to contemporary Denmark.

Another way to look at it is that immigrant groups bring parts of their old world with them; German-Americans left a high-social-trust, low-crime culture and established it in their new country.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#219

Post by petesergeant » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 10:02 PM UTC

pton_xd wrote: post #172

labrador wrote: post #107

I support immigration and oppose the Republican anti-immigrant platform because it seems to me there is significant brain drain from many countries to the U.S. and that contributes to our success. For example, in this article is about white collar crime, it points out that many Somali-Americans were professionals back in Somalia. I'm not concerned about the crime because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency unt…

> the Republican anti-immigrant platform because it seems to me there is significant brain drain from many countries to the U.S. and that contributes to our success. Explain how unskilled illegal immigrants contribute to our success. I'm open minded but I've yet to hear anything convincing. No one is opposed to the legal immigration of skilled workers.

> No one is opposed to the legal immigration of skilled workers

I can assure you that’s not true, but we hear the most about illegal unskilled immigration because everyone agrees on that.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#220

Post by zozbot234 » Sat, Jul 20, 2024, 10:03 PM UTC

spamizbad wrote: post #212

gottorf wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not concerned about the crime You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. The author of the article you linked to also exhorts the Somali immigrant community to not engage in crime. > because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency until the 2nd and 3rd generation is able to make it into established society. History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups…

> History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups aren't able to integrate with the host society after multiple generations, and remain ghettoized with low employment and high crime rates (vastly higher, for certain categories of crime). I'm not sure that's true. For example, in the United States, it took numerous generations of German-Americans to fully integrate into society, with…

WWI also forced the issue in a way that hasn't quite applied to other "ethnic" folks in the US. German immigrants, by and large, have been pushed towards forgetting their national culture altogether and assimilating into a newly-manufactured (by early 20th-century Progressives, no less), unified "White" identity.