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Firefox 128 enables "privacy-preserving" ad measurements by default

mstdn.social

211–220 of 221 posts

Re: Firefox 128 enables "privacy-preserving" ad measurements by default

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the link concerned all telemetry, of which accessing a web page, even just to show what's news, is one. The overall attitude included comments like 'I would like to see significantly more anonymous telemetry not less', while I want no network connections in my mail reader except that which I specifically initiate. These are people so acculturated to data collection that they don't understand that some other…

There are organizational incentives to this approach - at Mozilla / Thunderbird, with which I have a bone to pick; but also elsewhere. A couple of years back I was involved in an argument about doing something a bit similar in LibreOffice: https://design.blog.documentfoundation.org/2022/11/01/commun... Note the back-and-forth in the comments.

I understand why developers want feedback. I have paying customers for my software library and I can't get useful feedback from then about what features they use.

OTOH, why can't get get UI feedback from logging institutional users for different domains, where they can get real legal and ethical consent from the institution side?

I mean, yes, it's easier to force it on everyone and have them swallow the pill for lack of alternatives than it is to deal with organizations. But then the issue isn't one of lack of data, it's that they don't want to deal with organizations as equals, since that takes more work.

Re: Firefox 128 enables "privacy-preserving" ad measurements by default

#212

The scare quotes here are uncalled for: it is privacy-preserving. The approach allows measurement without disclosing who, specifically, did what with the ad. The best objection to these proposals isn't privacy, it's that a browser vendor is lifting a finger for advertisers. I guess the fundamental question there is if we prefer to outright shut down online advertising, or give it the tools it needs to be less bad. Op…

"The approach allows measurement without disclosing who, specifically, did what with the ad." If this is "privacy", then it appears so-called "(ad) tech" companies are attempting to redefine the term. Question for readers: Is knowing the identity of a person a prerequisite for that person to lose (some) privacy. Consider the dictionary definition: Webster's: "The state of being in retirement from the company or obser…

The boiling frog is a silly metaphor,^1 but the Silicon Valley tactic of gradually encroaching on peoples' liberties is real. Sometimes the so-called "tech" company will even retreat if there is a strong reaction from internet commentators, but this is only temporary. Encroachment is resumed at a later date when it likely to be overlooked.

https://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/07/peace_...

Re: Firefox 128 enables "privacy-preserving" ad measurements by default

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, it is impossible for me to fund specifically Firefox development. I can donate to the Mozilla Foundation, which means a portion will go to, for example, "$30M to build Mozilla.ai", which I emphatically do not want to fund. Given the firehose of money from Google, how much contributor money from people like me would be needed before Mozilla changes their mind? From my viewpoint, they've built their…

It's not just impossible for you to specifically fund Firefox. From what I understand, Mozilla Foundation money does not go to Mozilla Corporation/Firefox at all. You cannot donate to it at all, and your donations only go to those things you don't want to fund.

Your understanding is accurate. Donations to Mozilla cannot legally be used for Firefox development because your donations are tax-deductible due to Mozilla being a charity and Firefox development is done by a for-profit corporation.

Re: Firefox 128 enables "privacy-preserving" ad measurements by default

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overall that seems decent as far as privacy is concerned, though there are 2 things I don't like about it. 1. It relies on an 'aggregation service', which you'd better hope is trustworthy because they seemingly get all info about what 'impressions' you had and what 'conversions' you caused. 2. This is the browser acting on behalf of advertisers. It's nice there's a way for people to help companies benchmark their ads…

It uses multiple aggregation services, each of which get only partial data for each event, such that no individual service can track you, even if they wanted to. Initially the two aggregators are run by Mozilla and ISRG - your privacy is at risk only if you think both are malicious and actively sharing all the data between each other to track you. As the number of aggregators increases this gets better - as long as y…

Given how our data circulates around the web’s data brokers, it doesn’t take a stretch of the imagination to see that the risk of aggregators colluding the de-anonymize people is actually quite high.

Re: Firefox 128 enables "privacy-preserving" ad measurements by default

#215

The scare quotes here are uncalled for: it is privacy-preserving. The approach allows measurement without disclosing who, specifically, did what with the ad. The best objection to these proposals isn't privacy, it's that a browser vendor is lifting a finger for advertisers. I guess the fundamental question there is if we prefer to outright shut down online advertising, or give it the tools it needs to be less bad. Op…

> if we prefer to outright shut down online advertising, or give it the tools it needs to be less bad

It's not like we've just invented this new advertising thing and are now struggling to make it fit the internet. We've been living with it for decades now, and over all this time that industry haven't expressed even a slightest desire to be "less bad" in any meaningful way. I think we can safely set aside the idea that they don't do it because they just didn't have any tools. No, they don't do it because they are doing just fine without it, and they have zero motivation to do it. And a lot of motivation - billions upon billions of dollars of motivation - to keep doing exactly what they are doing, or worse.

Re: Firefox 128 enables "privacy-preserving" ad measurements by default

#216
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The scare quotes here are uncalled for: it is privacy-preserving. It is strictly less privacy-preserving than not implementing this "feature" that has zero benefit to the user running the browser. At the very least it pings yet another third party, most likely it effectively leaks much more. > The best objection to these proposals isn't privacy, it's that a browser vendor is lifting a finger for advertisers. I gues…

The worst part isn't mentioned here. I'm fine with making any tools available to the users. But enabling by default is a very different discussion. This is not the kind of tool/setting that justifies having it auto-enabled, it's not "we auto-enabled MFA to protect your most critical data". Enabling it was not done for my benefit and it wasn't even made obvious in any way, I had to find out from internet discussions.…

The update page that opens in a new tab mentioned this change, once updated to Firefox 128. Perhaps you have that turned off, many power users do, making them oblivious to updates and the changes they bring.

Also I believe this is to the benefit of the general populace, who would never enable it otherwise. It allows ads to work in a more privacy-preserving manner.

Re: Firefox 128 enables "privacy-preserving" ad measurements by default

#217

FYI Safari has been doing this (also enabled by default) for years on all Apple platforms. To disable it on macOS: Safari > Preferences/Settings > Advanced > Uncheck "Allow privacy-preserving measurement of ad effectiveness" To disable it on iOS: Settings > Safari > Advanced (scroll all the way down) > Turn off "Privacy Preserving Ad Measurement"

Hang on. What does it mean to disable this? 1. Does it disable measurement? - or - 2. Does it disable the privacy-preserving feature, i.e., enable tracking? What I really want to know: is it better for me to check the box or not?

Yes

Re: Firefox 128 enables "privacy-preserving" ad measurements by default

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use Librefox [1] on desktop and Mull [2] on Android. They're both basically patch sets applied to Firefox that remove tracking, proprietary blobs, and come with better defaults for privacy. [1] https://github.com/intika/Librefox [2] https://f-droid.org/en/packages/us.spotco.fennec_dos/

Librefox was last updated 5 years ago!?!?! You probably don't want to use that. Try https://librewolf.net/

Oops thanks for pointing that out. I am indeed using librewolf.

Re: Firefox 128 enables "privacy-preserving" ad measurements by default

#219
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The scare quotes here are uncalled for: it is privacy-preserving. It is strictly less privacy-preserving than not implementing this "feature" that has zero benefit to the user running the browser. At the very least it pings yet another third party, most likely it effectively leaks much more. > The best objection to these proposals isn't privacy, it's that a browser vendor is lifting a finger for advertisers. I gues…

The worst part isn't mentioned here. I'm fine with making any tools available to the users. But enabling by default is a very different discussion. This is not the kind of tool/setting that justifies having it auto-enabled, it's not "we auto-enabled MFA to protect your most critical data". Enabling it was not done for my benefit and it wasn't even made obvious in any way, I had to find out from internet discussions.…

The argument they're making (which I think is actually a fairly good one) is that this is to users benefit; the economic incentives for advertisers to circumvent anti-tracking tech are quite large. They claim that entirely preventing tracking is brittle; it's likely to be continual game of whack-a-mole that de facto will allow users to be tracked. Instead, giving advertisers a little more of what they actually want (better targeting) without the intermediate step of doing that by tracking users directly removes the incentive to pierce privacy.

Personally, I'm not a fan of advertising for reasons beyond privacy; it's also simply attention-sapping mental noise. Yet I'm not sure that's relevant here; removing some harm might be better than nothing even if I'm not happy with the end result.

The informed-consent angle seems fairly superficial. Yes, that matters - but the essential case is only if the tech is _not_ privacy preserving. Additionally, the ability to experiment is essential; to the extent this doesn't harm users and truly is small-scale I we should embrace experiments even if we don't personally at first glance embrace this specific one. It may seem polite to ask users for consent even here (and clearly that would have been the better PR choice), but I'm also not a fan of largely irrelevant consent forms, especially when asked prematurely - that's pretty close to spam. Sure, on Hacker News that may seem like an important question, but that's hardly a normal or representative slice of the population, and I'm just not sure I share the outrage here.

What exactly is the shadiness you're referring to here? Is it a lack of trust concerning their intentions? Is it a lack of trust that this is privacy preserving? Is it that you don't believe this experiment is small scale (enough or at all)? Or is that you don't trust they'll actually evaluate the experiment fairly, instead opting to push things through?

Another thing coloring my perspective here is that the open web sure seems to be heading in the wrong direction. Chromium is pretty dominant and none of the chromium derived browers appear to have resources (or willingness to spend them) to significantly depart from Chrome while still providing prompt security updates. Webkit is languishing and poorly updated in practice by users. De facto google seems to be pushing users towards at least pervasive tracking and leverage by google; Apple seems to support mostly those web features that don't risk competing with their app store. This isn't great; I'd love to see some competition.

Perhaps Firefox could somehow provide opt-in but noisy questions for users that want that, without harassing the likely large majority that doesn't see the point. It's a shame to chase away users over something like this, that's for sure.

Re: Firefox 128 enables "privacy-preserving" ad measurements by default

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used it for years and have not had many crashes so there is no real need for 'caution'. I also run Debian Sid on laptops, another 'unstable' system which is remarkably stable despite its moniker. If these were relatively new systems/programs there would be more churn but at this stage of their development the changes made tend to more gradual and less crash-prone.

Past performance is no guarantee of future results. There's always risk in running complex untested software.

There's always risk in running complex software
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