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Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

esa.int

211–220 of 403 posts

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#211
post #12
post #2

Ariane 6 exists so that European countries can get independent access to space between now and 2030s. The launch cost is almost 2x the cost of Falcon 9. Both platforms can lift 22t to LEO. 6-10 years from now Ariane Next/SALTO will aims replicate Falcon 9 efficiency and the design will be very similar: reusable, RP-1/LOX, Prometheus engine is similar reusable open cycle engine as Merlin with lots of 3D printed parts.

So because an incumbent exists ESA should give up, let their production and development pipeline rot away and "enjoy" the monopoly until it's too late to change something?

They did give up by building a disposable rocket in the 2020s

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol, how delusional. ArianeGroup literally just got 5 billion $ plus use of lots of tax payer subsidized infrastructure. That is 4 billion $ more then SpaceX ever got for development of Falcon 9. Falcon 9 got an old shitty broken down launch sites they had rebuild, ArianeGroup got a whole new built launch site for free. But feel free to live in fantasy land. > It’s not a like for like comparison especially give Space…

> Problem is we know how much money SpaceX raised If they wanted to raise money without it becoming public, they could do so easily - for example using directors loans. A better way to guess their expenses is to look at how many employees they have. Lets call it 15,000. Lets put average pay at $150k/year after overheads and taxes. 96 launches in 2023. That puts the salary cost per launch at $23M/launch. It's a very r…

Most people at SpaceX work on development programs and in manufacturing not launch. SpaceX manufactures many different things. Launch by now isn't even close to a majority of revenue anymore. SpaceX is not just a launch company, not even close. They are a full space company doing everything from ground infrastructure, commercial and military sats, human and cargo space flight to LEO and the moon. And they are doing development and operations of all of that.

What matters is marginal cost of every other launch of Falcon 9. Most analysts put the number somewhere between 10 million $ and 25 million $. I think very few people would guess more then 20 million $, specially now as launch rate has gone up. My guess is that 15 million $ is more reasonable.

SpaceX pretty consistently ramped up their money raising along with their development programs. And they were pretty transparent about all of that. Not a single company who analyses SpaceX has ever suggest that SpaceX might somehow have raised much more money. Maybe a few 10s of million. But its hard to raise billions without anybody knowing.

And I'm just rather believing people who spend a lot of resources trying to understand SpaceX rather then somebody in an internet form saying 'maybe they have raised billions without anybody knowing'. Because only if its actually billions would it change anything about my argument.

What is numbers actually suggest is that SpaceX Falcon 9 operation are highly profitable. They are selling launch way above cost. Numbers and information we have suggest that SpaceX bids very aggressively on their development contracts for NASA, and they are like no making a profit on those, maybe a loss. In case of Starship, a big loss. But likely they get that back with continued operation beyond the initial orders (or that has been the reality so far). Numbers suggest that SpaceX is making a killing on DoD contracts, they knew they were the only viable competitor so they bid very high on those. I think just one that stuff, SpaceX would be a highly profitable company.

If this was not true, then there simply is no way they could have sustained the massive investment in Starship and Starlink.

So unless somebody shows me prove or anything close to a credible source, showing that SpaceX raised multiple billion additional $, I'm just not gone believe the SpaceX is losing money on everything narrative.

Frankly given how insanely expensive something like Starship is, its crazy how little money they have actually raised. Its basically a drop in the bucket to compare it to SLS.

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#213
post #159
post #86

In Germany there are 3 companies, I heard in France 2 companies, I don't any in other parts of Europe but there are definitely but I suppose the European rocket start up pipeline is filled. P. S. HN please tell me about your (European) nation's future rocket builder.

I still don't know how seriously to take it, but this one really stands out from the crowd: https://www.sidereus.space/ https://europeanspaceflight.com/sidereus-space-dynamics-comp...

Now I found this one as well from Poland https://europeanspaceflight.com/ilr-33-amber-2k-makes-histor...

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#214
> Beyond the great emotion I am feeling right now, my first thoughts are for all the teams in Kourou, Paris, Vernon, Les Mureaux, Toulouse, Bremen, Lampoldshausen, Liège, Barcelona, Colleferro, Zürich and everywhere else in Europe who made this success possible.

Would the UK have been a part of this pre-Brexit?

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#215
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the Europeans wworried that "between now and 2030s" the US will cut off their access to space? I understand things can go wrong and it's good to have a backup plan in the long term... But that's not that many years out. You can go without access for a few years .. It seems like a tiny risk

The French mantra is strategic autonomy. We are allies with the USA, we are not vassals of the USA and we do not want to depend on anybody else to defend our own interests or our own agenda. This is why the French army has independent expeditionary and nuclear deterrent capabilities and why nearly all of our military kit is designed and produced either locally or in partnership with nearby European countries. It's no…

Wish more NATO members had that attitude.

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#216
post #86

In Germany there are 3 companies, I heard in France 2 companies, I don't any in other parts of Europe but there are definitely but I suppose the European rocket start up pipeline is filled. P. S. HN please tell me about your (European) nation's future rocket builder.

Also here is a non rocket space device from Germany https://www.polaris-raumflugzeuge.de/ (I cant judge their seriousness, but they got funding by military)

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#217
post #2

Ariane 6 exists so that European countries can get independent access to space between now and 2030s. The launch cost is almost 2x the cost of Falcon 9. Both platforms can lift 22t to LEO. 6-10 years from now Ariane Next/SALTO will aims replicate Falcon 9 efficiency and the design will be very similar: reusable, RP-1/LOX, Prometheus engine is similar reusable open cycle engine as Merlin with lots of 3D printed parts.

Are the Europeans wworried that "between now and 2030s" the US will cut off their access to space? I understand things can go wrong and it's good to have a backup plan in the long term... But that's not that many years out. You can go without access for a few years .. It seems like a tiny risk

>Are the Europeans wworried that "between now and 2030s" the US will cut off their access to space?

Both US presidential candidates are not mentally well. Who knows what they might do.

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#218
post #214

> Beyond the great emotion I am feeling right now, my first thoughts are for all the teams in Kourou, Paris, Vernon, Les Mureaux, Toulouse, Bremen, Lampoldshausen, Liège, Barcelona, Colleferro, Zürich and everywhere else in Europe who made this success possible. Would the UK have been a part of this pre-Brexit?

The UK is still part of ESA.

They do not have a direct involvement in the Ariane project however.

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#219
post #214

> Beyond the great emotion I am feeling right now, my first thoughts are for all the teams in Kourou, Paris, Vernon, Les Mureaux, Toulouse, Bremen, Lampoldshausen, Liège, Barcelona, Colleferro, Zürich and everywhere else in Europe who made this success possible. Would the UK have been a part of this pre-Brexit?

The UK is part of ESA, which should be independant from EU membership. I am not sure where Ariane 6 parts are built though.

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#220
post #2

Ariane 6 exists so that European countries can get independent access to space between now and 2030s. The launch cost is almost 2x the cost of Falcon 9. Both platforms can lift 22t to LEO. 6-10 years from now Ariane Next/SALTO will aims replicate Falcon 9 efficiency and the design will be very similar: reusable, RP-1/LOX, Prometheus engine is similar reusable open cycle engine as Merlin with lots of 3D printed parts.

Not sure why everyone here is talking about cost when independent control is much more to be desired. If a country / countries aren’t as friendly or dislike what you want to do they might not let you do what you want.
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