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Batteries: How cheap can they get?

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Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#211

Post by lelanthran »

fouc wrote: post #142
iamthemonster wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This approach may vary by country. Not a single sparky in Australia will sign off on someone else's solar/battery install.

Isn't there a distinction between the house wiring and the solar/battery stuff? P.S. I've never heard of sparky being used as slang for an electrician, sounds very aussie.

> P.S. I've never heard of sparky being used as slang for an electrician, sounds very aussie.

I'm surprised to find out it's aussie slang; I always thought it was slang local to South Africa :-/

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#212

Post by nanomonkey »

cyberax wrote: post #115
GaggiX wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What voltage are you running your solar strings at? I was wondering what would happen if the loose cable was a cable from the solar panels instead of the low voltage battery.

If you want a DIY-friendly option, it's best to look towards DC optimizers. They are installed on each panel and they provide a steady 48V output. They also do MPPT tracking on the panel level, so you get the best possible performance if you have some shading. Unlike microinverters that are notoriously unreliable, DC optimizers so far have excellent long-term reliability.

Are you suggesting using a DC Optimizer from your solar panels to charge 48V batteries directly? This would be interesting. It's the first I've heard of optimizers being used for anything other than prior to an inverter.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#213

Post by kkfx »

callmemclovin wrote: post #205
kkfx wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, here, France, LFP batteries now cost MUCH MORE than just three years ago (final customer price) and... ~1000€ per kWh, while just 3 years ago they was a bit less than 700€ per kWh, the battery alone (with BMS etc) but we also need an inverter witch as well is not much more expensive and I talk about self-assembled systems, here legal, but not legal in large slice of the EU, because retail price of a complete in…

Well with the DIY route that's not a problem - nkon.nl is shipping to France as well, I guess? So there you can get EVE 280 Ah cells for about 100 €/kWh: https://www.nkon.nl/fr/rechargeable/lifepo4/prismatisch/eve-...

Unfortunately DIY is limited to what is certified in France, Victron MultiPlus are certified all, Quattro so far are not, the sole battery from this shop allowed for a grid-connected system are the Pylontech. Still MUCH cheaper than what I've found from French shops anyway so a big thanks :-)

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#214

Post by oulipo »

Aurornis wrote: post #107
duffpkg wrote: post #19

Lifepo4 (lithium iron phosphate) batteries for the home are pretty cheap as of today. Power storage for residential use in a 48v metal rackable linkable system with battery management system (BMS) is $89/kwh shipped/duty paid from reputable chinese suppliers CATL/Seplos etc. You have to wait for sea shipping, add $30/kwh if you want to buy it in the US today. From the same suppliers sodium batteries are currently $13…

I’ve followed the super cheap Chinese battery options for a while. It’s amazing how cheap they can be, but at the same time the number of early failure stories is alarmingly high. Getting a warranty exchange is hit or miss. It feels a lot like gambling. You might get one that works for a thousand cycles without issues. You might get one that fails after a week. You might be able to get a warranty replacement, or you…

This is why at https://gouach.com we've built the first easy-to-repair, easy-to-swap-cell battery! We're launching a Kickstarter soon, stay tuned (on our newsletter!)

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#215

Post by lazide »

defrost wrote: post #207
lazide wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re misunderstanding what I’m trying to say. I’m talking about assembling your own multi-kwh lithium battery assemblies (pre-BMS even). One wrong poke with a screwdriver, and all sorts of entertainment is likely to ensue eh? And they’re big enough, no portable fire extinguisher is going to make a dent either.

Sure, you're saying some people shouldn't DIY. Where I live many people DIY as a great many people have mad skills (lots of FiFo workers making a good living from O&G installions and big mining projects). They build their own houses, their own planes, off grid power systems, water proof EV's to drive across harbour floors, etc. If you've got a big (shipping container sized) battery pack you need a big thermal blanket…

No, you’re talking about building structures.

I’m talking about assembling a bomb.

A 5kwh battery contains about 18MJ of energy, equivalent to 4.3KG of TNT. Short that out or puncture on of its component pouches, and it’s going to be very dramatic.

One of them requires a different degree of care than the other.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#216

Post by oulipo »

h0l0cube wrote: post #171
Aurornis wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many of the systems, the BMS and battery are one in the same. This article blurs the lines between the cells and battery system, too.

The post you were replying to was specifically about cells, and if you’re going for economy, building your own packs are substantially cheaper than buying packs domestically. Also less fraught when you’ve DIYed to diagnose and fix when things go wrong

This is why at https://gouach.com we've built the first easy-to-repair, easy-to-swap-cell battery! We're launching a Kickstarter soon, stay tuned (on our newsletter!)

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#217

Post by oulipo »

kkfx wrote: post #72
duffpkg wrote: post #19

Lifepo4 (lithium iron phosphate) batteries for the home are pretty cheap as of today. Power storage for residential use in a 48v metal rackable linkable system with battery management system (BMS) is $89/kwh shipped/duty paid from reputable chinese suppliers CATL/Seplos etc. You have to wait for sea shipping, add $30/kwh if you want to buy it in the US today. From the same suppliers sodium batteries are currently $13…

Well, here, France, LFP batteries now cost MUCH MORE than just three years ago (final customer price) and... ~1000€ per kWh, while just 3 years ago they was a bit less than 700€ per kWh, the battery alone (with BMS etc) but we also need an inverter witch as well is not much more expensive and I talk about self-assembled systems, here legal, but not legal in large slice of the EU, because retail price of a complete in…

This is why at https://gouach.com we've built the first easy-to-repair, easy-to-swap-cell battery! We're launching a Kickstarter soon, stay tuned (on our newsletter!)

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#218

Post by oulipo »

mrob wrote: post #11
catlikesshrimp wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The environment be damned: Regarding price / energy density, yes. They even have weight / energy density advantage. But Lithium batteries can't be recycled. Saying "We are almost there" and "The future looks bright about it" is "moving fast and breaking things" again

Recovering lithium from batteries is not cost effective compared with mining new lithium. However, battery recycling is possible and still worth doing, because it recovers more valuable metals such as cobalt or copper.

And before recycling, reusing! This is why at https://gouach.com we've built the first easy-to-repair, easy-to-swap-cell battery! We're launching a Kickstarter soon, stay tuned (on our newsletter!)

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#219

Post by h0l0cube »

lazide wrote: post #206
h0l0cube wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on how scrupulous Average Person is being. There's codes for electrical and solar installations that can be followed, and it's best to stick to the letter, even if you're certain it doesn't apply. And after that, you should get it certified by a licensed professional, but would also need a licensed professional to hook it up to the grid

I think you’re misunderstanding what I’m trying to say. I’m talking about assembling your own multi-kwh lithium battery assemblies (pre-BMS even). One wrong poke with a screwdriver, and all sorts of entertainment is likely to ensue eh? And they’re big enough, no portable fire extinguisher is going to make a dent either.

> One wrong poke with a screwdriver

I'm not sure where you're jamming the screwdriver, but certainly any wrenches/tools you use should be insulated if you're dealing with very high current and/or high voltage. Enclosures, insulated wires, conduits, terminal covers should be used to avoid short circuits. Also proper earthing and circuit isolation with RCBOs to protect from electric shock and overcurrents frying the wires/you, all which should be switched to the off position when you're poking your screwdriver, eh? ;)

> And they’re big enough, no portable fire extinguisher is going to make a dent either.

If you aren't doing basic safety things and somehow manage thermal runaway on LiFePo4 (pretty hard), you're probably going to melt some copper. Probably best not to put your battery assembly near flammable things, unless you want to see the world burn like this guy (though at low voltage/high current)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywaTX-nLm6Y

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#220

Post by zdragnar »

ChumpGPT wrote: post #152
blacksmith_tb wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds great, but are there actual businesses who will come to your home and do an install, or do you need to to become a mad-scientist electrician and DIY? I got quotes on getting an LG system a few years ago and it was 4X these prices (also for me a problem is that my 'ancient' panels from 2013 use a single inverter instead of microinverters, so if I touch the system I have to replace it all). I keep hoping there w…

If you're in the US, I don't think you need to pull a permit if it's not on your house. So you could build a small installation in your backyard and hook it up without too much trouble. This channel on youtube is an excellent resource and explains everything for anyone one who is a DIYer. https://www.youtube.com/@WillProwse

Make sure you have a good understanding of what your insurance company will and won't cover for DIY projects. Insurance companies can be skittish about unlicensed electrical work.

For something like this, a worst case scenario is an electrical fire during a drought or a kid gets electrocuted. If you do the work yourself, you're likely on the hook if something goes wrong, even if it's due to a faulty part and you have an umbrella policy that covers liability.

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