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Are animals conscious? New research

bbc.com

211–220 of 544 posts

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#211
I think animals do have consciousness, and I had thought that many times in the past. However, it is also necessary to define "consciousness". (Even this article admits that, though.)

About placing humanity (or something else) in a category of its own, that depends on how the categorization is made, and it could be done in any way, so such a categorization of humanity does not really help, and can be deceptive to think it is the only one or the best one.

I also think that "intelligence" would not be simply defined by higher vs lower; it is more complicated because of different kind of intelligence and more subclassifications of those too, and then there is the difference of e.g. speed vs knowledge vs etc. There is a sense to identify the intelligence of kind of animals (and of the same kind of animals, e.g. human), but if you merely say it is higher or lower then it is imprecise.

This article also mentions colours, such as red colours. (And other things that you can also feel.) But, not all kind of animal can see all of the colours; some can see some colours that humans does not see but also does not see some that humans does see. Humans can see three colours, but some animals might see four colours. (And, some people also are partially or fully colour blind.)

I had also read in a book once, they said, they are sure that insects have feelings but is not sure about emotions. Well, my guess is probably they do; but, it would be a mistake to think that having emotion would necessarily mean that it is like humans emotions; it can be difference.

Nevertheless, many things that people have said are only for humans and are not what other kind of animals are. In many cases, I think they are wrong (and may even apply for some kind of plants, etc); "conscious" is not the only thing. However, there are also differences (including differences in the details of the things that actually are similar in many ways); and probably some of the differences have been missed as much as many of the similarities have been missed. (There are also differences between individuals, but that is a different thing.)

> And this is important because we need to set rules to protect them either in the lab or in the wild.

You do not need to know exactly how those animals will feel to justify avoiding treating animals badly.

Differences of different kind of animals does not justify to treat them badly.

But, it is good that scientists are actually finally figuring out this stuff scientifically, now. Although I and others had said such things before, that is not the same as doing it scientifically; so now that it can be done scientifically, it will be understood better scientifically, too.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#212

> We now know that bees can count, recognise human faces and learn how to use tools. I was curious what that means in this context and found this research (co-authored by Prof Chittka mentioned in the article): https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou... Apparently only a small minority of bumble bees can figure out how to pull a string to access a reward, but then other bees adopt the behavior by…

> I think the bar for recognizing intelligence in general has been set too low.

I think that the problem is not being too low, but being not very clearly defined, and by assuming that you can just be quantified by numbers; I think that intelligence (and consciousness) cannot be properly quantified by numbers.

> What is consciousness? I don't think we're any closer to rigorously defining that anymore than intelligence.

It is a valid point. You will have to define such things clearly in order to know them scientifically, properly.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#213

92 Billion animals are killed each year for food.[1] That doesn't include the 110 million that are killed each year for science. [2] These animals must not be conscious, or we would never do such a thing, right? Oh, and we keep over a billion pets in our homes and call them our friends. But they can't be conscious. The science must be flawed. /s [1] https://www.humanesociety.org/blog/more-animals-ever-922-bil... [2]…

Would you prefer those animals never existed?

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#214
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Animals didn't land on the moon Isn't this conspiracy theory? One species of mammals actually did.

But animals(dogs) were first to go into orbit!

The first animal in orbit was Laika, a Soviet space dog. She was launched aboard Sputnik 2 on November 3, 1957. The first animals in space were fruit flies, launched by the United States aboard a V-2 rocket on February 20, 1947.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#215

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

Consciousness and intelligence are orthogonal concepts. It's not the case that the more "intelligent" human is, the more "conscious" they are. Intelligence is the ability to abstractly reason and adapt to novel stimulus. Consciousness is the individual experience of the "interiority" of a world model constructed in the brain. Given we're all in the same evolutionary line, there nothing to make me believe that a Dog d…

> Consciousness is the individual experience of the "interiority" of a world model constructed in the brain.

A better definition I think is to say an entity or system is conscious to the extent it’s world model is encompassing / “complete” and self-conscious when its world model includes itself and its own internal states. By this definition there are many continuous levels of consciousness and self-consciousness and these are not binary all vs nothing.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#218

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

I think there is also a misguided razor that people who self identify as rationalists often apply, which goes, "the most cynical or disenchanted answer is likely the correct one." An overcorrection to superstition, perhaps.

I personally did this, and one of the symptoms was being overly skeptical of animal consciousness. People would tell me this dog was smart or that it was feeling a certain way, and I dismissed it, thinking them fanciful. One moment that showed me I was misguided was when I took a cookbook out from a low shelf, and replaced it. I didn't put it exactly where I'd retrieved it from. Several hours later, the cat walked by the shelf, stopped, and started examining the cookbooks.

I was impressed because I wouldn't have noticed those books being out of place. I realized that my cat knew things that I did not. That put a crack of doubt in my facade of cynicism. Eventually I realized that cynicism was hollow and obscured the truth, rather than revealing it.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it has been controversial for at least one other major reason discussed in the BBC article and by Anil Seth—-the near equivalence made between language and consciousness that goes back to Descartes. Descartes viewed the body as machinery, the mind as imbued and linked in a nebulous way to the body, but distinct at some fundamental level. This split enabled the behaviorist tradition to dominate animal psychology f…

I don't see how language and consciousness are equivalent in any sense. Does someone who never learns to speak not conscious? I suppose we mean the ability to learn language.

Hellen Keller is an interesting take on your question. https://scentofdawn.blogspot.com/2011/07/before-soul-dawn-he...

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever met a person who was blackout drunk? Easy example. They are very often not conscious but still emotional. You could easily imagine animals that exist in this state continuously without requiring chemical assistance. It makes sense on a neurological level as well. The more robust and evolutionarily older parts of the brain like the brain stem take much more ethanol to inhibit. The PFC is inhibited almost immediat…

This is why the concept of consciousness is largely nonsense. The person that is blacked out is not unconscious. They just are not storing memories in order to remember the experience after the fact. Can you see it? It is right in front of you that consciousness doesn't exist. It is right in your own example. It is a 21st century superstition and English language flaw. People cling to this idea the way people use to…

I somewhat agree with you. The concept of consciousness needs rethinking. A better definition I think is to say an entity or system is conscious to the extent it’s world model is encompassing / “complete” and self-conscious when its world model includes itself and its own internal states. By this definition there are many continuous levels of consciousness and self-consciousness and these attributes are not binary all vs nothing. As for the soul a better definition for the soul of something is the information required to recreate it. If due to lossy compression or information corruption you can only recreate an approximation then some fraction of the original soul has been lost.
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