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ARC Prize – a $1M+ competition towards open AGI progress

arcprize.org

211–220 of 351 posts

Re: ARC Prize – a $1M+ competition towards open AGI progress

#211
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> humans do not need 10,000 examples to tell the difference between cats and dogs, I swear, not enough people have kids. Now, is it 10k examples? No, but I think it was on the order of hundreds, if not thousands. One thing kids do is they'll ask for confirmation of their guess. You'll be reading a book you've read 50 times before and the kid will stop you, point at a dog in the book, and ask "dog?" And there is a dev…

> Now, is it 10k examples? No, but I think it was on the order of hundreds, if not thousands. I have kids so I'm presuming I'm allowed to have an opinion here. This is ignoring the fact that babies are not just learning labels, they're learning the whole of language, motion planning, sensory processing, etc. Once they have the basics down concept acquisition time shrinks rapidly and kids can easily learn their new fa…

> This is ignoring the fact that babies are not just learning labels, they're learning the whole of language, motion planning, sensory processing, etc.

Yes. All that learning is feeding off one another. They're learning how reality works. Every bit of new information informs everything else. It's something that LLMs demonstrate too, so it shouldn't be a surprising observation.

> Once they have the basics down concept acquisition time shrinks rapidly

Sort of, kind of.

> and kids can easily learn their new favorite animal in as little as a single example.

Under 5 they don't. Can't speak what happens later, as my oldest kid just had their 5th birthday. But below 5, all I've seen is kids being quick to remember a name, but taking quite a bit longer to actually distinguish between a new animal and similarly looking ones they already know. It takes a while to update the classifier :).

(And no, they aren't going to one-shot recognize an animal in a zoo that they saw first time on a picture hours earlier; it's a case I've seen brought up, and I maintain that even most adults will fail spectacularly at this test.)

> Compare this to LLMs which can one-shot certain tasks, but only if they have essentially already memorized enough information to know about that task. It gives the illusion that these models are learning like children do, when in reality they are not even entirely capable of learning novel concepts.

Correct, in the sense that the models don't update their weights while you use them. But that just means you have to compare them with ability of humans to one-shot tasks on the spot, "thinking on their feet", which for most tasks makes even adults look bad compared to GPT-4.

> How many homework questions did your entire calc 1 class have? I'm guessing less than 100 and (hopefully) you successfully learned differential calculus.

I don't believe someone could learn calc in 100 exercises or less. Per concept like "addition of small numbers", or "long division", or "basic derivatives", or "trivial integrals", yes. Note that in-class exercises count too; learning doesn't happen primarily by homework (mostly because few have enough time in a day to do it).

Re: ARC Prize – a $1M+ competition towards open AGI progress

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> kids can easily learn their new favorite animal in as little as a single example Until they encounter a similar animal and get confused, at which point you understand the implicit heuristic they were relying on. (Eg. They confused a dairy cow as a zebra, which means their heuristic was a black-and-white quadrupedal) Doesn't this seem remarkably close to how LLMs behave with one-shot or few-shot learning? I think th…

Not many zebras where I live but lots of little dogs. Small dogs were clearly cats for a long time no matter what I said. The training can take a while.

This. My 2.5 y.o. still argues with me that a small dog she just saw in the park is a "cat". That's in contrast to her older sister, who at 5 is... begrudgingly accepting that I might be right about it after the third time I correct her.

Re: ARC Prize – a $1M+ competition towards open AGI progress

#213
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now, is it 10k examples? No, but I think it was on the order of hundreds, if not thousands. I have kids so I'm presuming I'm allowed to have an opinion here. This is ignoring the fact that babies are not just learning labels, they're learning the whole of language, motion planning, sensory processing, etc. Once they have the basics down concept acquisition time shrinks rapidly and kids can easily learn their new fa…

> How many homework questions did your entire calc 1 class have? I'm guessing less than 100 and (hopefully) you successfully learned differential calculus. Not just that: people learn mathematics mainly by _thinking over and solving problems_, not by memorising solutions to problems. During my mathematics education I had to practice solving a lot of problems dissimilar what I had seen before. Even in the theory part,…

> People think that knowledge lies in the texts themselves; it does not, it lies in what these texts relate to and the processes that they are part of, a lot of which are out in the real world and in our interactions

And almost all of it is just more text, or described in more text.

You're very much right about this. And that's exactly why LLMs work as well as they do - they're trained on enough text of all kinds and topics, that they get to pick up on all kinds of patterns and relationships, big and small. The meaning of any word isn't embedded in the letters that make it, but in what other words and experiences are associated with it - and it so happens that it's exactly what language models are mapping.

Re: ARC Prize – a $1M+ competition towards open AGI progress

#214
post #195
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

illusion that these models are learning like children do, when in reality they are not even entirely capable of learning novel concepts Now imagine how much would your kid learn if the only input he ever received was a sequence of words?

Are you saying it's not fair for LLMs, because of the way they are taught is different? The difference is that we don't know better methods for them, but we do know of better methods for people.

I think they're saying that it's silly to claim humans learn with less data than LLMs, when humans are ingesting a continuous video, audio, olfactory and tactile data stream for 16+ hours a day, every day. It takes at least 4 years for a human children to be in any way comparable in performance to GPT-4 on any task both of them could be tested on; do people really believe GPT-4 was trained with more data than a 4 year old?

Re: ARC Prize – a $1M+ competition towards open AGI progress

#215
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty easy, just follow the second example with the colors from the test input. (if it's the same puzzle 00576224 for you too)

https://arcprize.org/play?task=00576224 Yes the same puzzle. And I followed the second example. This was my solution: GRG OBO RGR B is the cyan like blue color. My solution looks right, but it says it’s wrong.

The pattern changes in the middle as well. so you'd need to show on the full size

Re: ARC Prize – a $1M+ competition towards open AGI progress

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not many zebras where I live but lots of little dogs. Small dogs were clearly cats for a long time no matter what I said. The training can take a while.

This. My 2.5 y.o. still argues with me that a small dog she just saw in the park is a "cat". That's in contrast to her older sister, who at 5 is... begrudgingly accepting that I might be right about it after the third time I correct her.

And once they learn sarcasm, small dogs are cats again :-)

Re: ARC Prize – a $1M+ competition towards open AGI progress

#217

> the only eval which measures AGI. That's a stretch. This is a problem at which LLMs are bad. That does not imply it's a good measure of artificial general intelligence. After working a few of the problems, I was wondering how many different transformation rules the problem generator has. Not very many, it seems. So the problem breaks down into extracting the set of transformation rules from the data, then applying…

The tasks are handmade. There is no "problem generator".

Re: ARC Prize – a $1M+ competition towards open AGI progress

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The optimization process that trained the human brain is called evolution, and it took a lot more than 10,000 examples to produce a system that can differentiate cats vs dogs. Asserted without evidence. We have essentially no idea at what point living systems were capable of differentiating cats from dogs (we don't even know for sure which living systems can do this).

We know for a fact that cats, dogs, and humans do.

As adults, not (as per this thread) genetically.

Re: ARC Prize – a $1M+ competition towards open AGI progress

#219
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying it's not fair for LLMs, because of the way they are taught is different? The difference is that we don't know better methods for them, but we do know of better methods for people.

I think they're saying that it's silly to claim humans learn with less data than LLMs, when humans are ingesting a continuous video, audio, olfactory and tactile data stream for 16+ hours a day, every day. It takes at least 4 years for a human children to be in any way comparable in performance to GPT-4 on any task both of them could be tested on; do people really believe GPT-4 was trained with more data than a 4 yea…

I think that's all fair that both LMMs and and people get a certain (even unbounded) amount of "pretraining" before actual tasks.

But after the training people are much more equipped to do single-shot recognition and cognitive tasks of imagery and situations they have not encountered before, e.g. identifying (from pictures) which animals is being shown, even if it is the second time of seeing that animal (the first being shown that this animal is a zebra).

So, basically, after initial training, I believe people are superior in single-shot tasks—and things are going to get much more interesting once LMMs (or something after that?) are able to do that well.

It might be that GPT-4o can actually do that task well! Someone should demo it, I don't have access. Except, of course, GPT-4o already knows what zebras look like, so something else than exactly that..

Re: ARC Prize – a $1M+ competition towards open AGI progress

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> humans do not need 10,000 examples to tell the difference between cats and dogs The optimization process that trained the human brain is called evolution, and it took a lot more than 10,000 examples to produce a system that can differentiate cats vs dogs. Put differently, an LLM is pre-trained with very light priors, starting almost from scratch, whereas a human brain is pre-loaded with extremely strong priors.

>The optimization process that trained the human brain is called evolution A human brain that doesn't get visual stimulus at the critical age between 0 and 3 years old will never be able to tell the difference between a cat and a dog because it will be forevermore blind.

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