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I'm forking Ladybird and stepping down as SerenityOS BDFL

awesomekling.substack.com

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Re: I'm forking Ladybird and stepping down as SerenityOS BDFL

#211

Post by nextaccountic »

kelnos wrote: post #171
The_Colonel wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree (apart from the popular hate on Firefox). Ladybird is promising and has a much bigger chance to make an impact than SerenityOS. But it's a bit disappointing to see that it's still pretty much a one-man project. Especially to have a chance to get close to the performance of Chrome and Firefox, it will need a large investment. The amount of engineering resources poured into just making JavaScript fast is mind-n…

I don't think that was intended to be hate on Firefox itself, but hate on the general mismanagement of the project by Mozilla. Firefox itself may not be in the corner sniffing glue, but it often feels like much of the decision-making at Mozilla is glue-sniffing-fueled. (Happy Firefox user here; I still don't understand why anyone who cares even the tiniest bit about privacy or an open web is using Chrome.)

Yeah, Firefox is expert on shooting its own foot, but Chrome is just sociopathic.

I will take the glue sniffing kid over a bully any time.

Re: I'm forking Ladybird and stepping down as SerenityOS BDFL

#212

Post by lcouturi »

admax88qqq wrote: post #204
Zetaphor wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At this pace it would likely take decades just for them to be complete enough to show up on MDN or wpt.fyi The important thing to keep in mind with this announcement is that the glacial pace was previously a restriction of being attached to SerenityOS. Everything needed to be built from scratch with no reliance on third party libraries. Now that they're detaching from Serenity they can start reaping the benefits of…

Indeed! Now they can use chromium and get a big running start /s I’m not sure what in the FOSS ecosystem will actually help them if they’re trying to take a fresh set of eyes on implementing a web browser. EDIT: ga sibling comment beat me to the joke

Well, they could build their UI using an existing toolkit, like GTK or Qt. Though, when I previously tested Ladybird it seemed to be using GTK and the current AUR package lists Qt as a dependency, so it seems they're already doing that.

They could also rely on existing multimedia libraries for audio/video (ffmpeg). Those are the main things that jump out to me. There's so much ground to cover that there's probably more, though. Maybe SDL for gamepad support?

Re: I'm forking Ladybird and stepping down as SerenityOS BDFL

#213

Post by MeImCounting »

vitiral wrote: post #194

Fill your bowl to the brim and it will spill. Keep sharpening your knife and it will blunt. Chase after money and security and your heart will never unclench. Care about people’s approval and you will be their prisoner. Do your work, then step back. The only path to serenity. Tao Te Ching

Ok yeah but the thing about the knife is just not true, a knifes not sharp until you de-burr it and if you just continue to grind the edge youre going to just be building a bigger burr and removing metal, eventually the knife will be ground away but thats beside the point. Good knife sharpening does only need a bit of grinding until you reach the grit you want and then de-burr but youre not going to make it dull by continuing to remove metal.

Re: I'm forking Ladybird and stepping down as SerenityOS BDFL

#214

Post by xiaq »

MeImCounting wrote: post #213
vitiral wrote: post #194

Fill your bowl to the brim and it will spill. Keep sharpening your knife and it will blunt. Chase after money and security and your heart will never unclench. Care about people’s approval and you will be their prisoner. Do your work, then step back. The only path to serenity. Tao Te Ching

Ok yeah but the thing about the knife is just not true, a knifes not sharp until you de-burr it and if you just continue to grind the edge youre going to just be building a bigger burr and removing metal, eventually the knife will be ground away but thats beside the point. Good knife sharpening does only need a bit of grinding until you reach the grit you want and then de-burr but youre not going to make it dull by c…

That seems to be a bad translation, the original text means something like “sharpen something fully and it won’t last so long” (presumably due to it being more brittle). The text (like the rest of Tao Te Ching) is pretty vague and doesn’t actually refer to knives, so it could also be read metaphorically.

Re: I'm forking Ladybird and stepping down as SerenityOS BDFL

#215

Post by MeImCounting »

xiaq wrote: post #214
MeImCounting wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok yeah but the thing about the knife is just not true, a knifes not sharp until you de-burr it and if you just continue to grind the edge youre going to just be building a bigger burr and removing metal, eventually the knife will be ground away but thats beside the point. Good knife sharpening does only need a bit of grinding until you reach the grit you want and then de-burr but youre not going to make it dull by c…

That seems to be a bad translation, the original text means something like “sharpen something fully and it won’t last so long” (presumably due to it being more brittle). The text (like the rest of Tao Te Ching) is pretty vague and doesn’t actually refer to knives, so it could also be read metaphorically.

I was being silly and pedantic but thats an interesting distinction!

I imagine Laozi probably knew how to have sharp knives so I defer to his wisdom as far as 4th century chinese knives go anyways. Perhaps they used a different technique there and then than the type of knife sharpening I'm familiar with.

Re: I'm forking Ladybird and stepping down as SerenityOS BDFL

#216

Post by robertlagrant »

nasso_dev wrote: post #61
nextaccountic wrote: post #5

> Ladybird now targets Linux and macOS. The SerenityOS target is dropped. Why dropping the SerenityOS target?? Does this mean that SerenityOS's Ladybird will need to continually pull patches from the new Ladybird project in order to keep development? Also: is it really a fork if the new project gets to keep the name "Ladybird"? Will SerenityOS's browser need to be renamed, or there will be two diverging Ladybird proj…

my understanding is that serenity will focus less on the web browser in the first place. it might just go back to being a simple html viewer with rudimentary js support? my hope is that they take this as an opportunity to come up with a purpose built "web" stack for serenity? use it as an excuse to reinvent the web and "fix" the mistakes that were made? maybe by actually Putting Scheme In The Browser rather than js?

They could put Scheme in the browser, but then what websites would work? How many have Scheme; zero? Have JS - almost all?

Re: I'm forking Ladybird and stepping down as SerenityOS BDFL

#217

Post by JBits »

materielle wrote: post #184
ssernikk wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] pick up Servo from the table, that would be wonderful too. I would love to see a servo-based browser in near future!

I think it would be interesting to understand why Servo seems to have moved so slow compared to Ladybird. I suspect Ladybird’s success has a lot to do with Andreas himself.

I think because Servo was orginally focused at researching new techniques for designing a modern browser, not creating something for users to user. Parts of Servo made it into Firefox.

Re: I'm forking Ladybird and stepping down as SerenityOS BDFL

#218

Post by webprofusion »

I hope that long term the browser gets first class Windows support (currently it's via linux running under WSL), just because broad reach is best for longevity/sustainable relevance.

If you build for a particular shape/character of OS (linux/BSD as it currently stands) then a lot of the abstraction that would be needed for a truly "cross-platform" app doesn't happen.

Re: I'm forking Ladybird and stepping down as SerenityOS BDFL

#219

Post by throwanem »

MeImCounting wrote: post #213
vitiral wrote: post #194

Fill your bowl to the brim and it will spill. Keep sharpening your knife and it will blunt. Chase after money and security and your heart will never unclench. Care about people’s approval and you will be their prisoner. Do your work, then step back. The only path to serenity. Tao Te Ching

Ok yeah but the thing about the knife is just not true, a knifes not sharp until you de-burr it and if you just continue to grind the edge youre going to just be building a bigger burr and removing metal, eventually the knife will be ground away but thats beside the point. Good knife sharpening does only need a bit of grinding until you reach the grit you want and then de-burr but youre not going to make it dull by c…

Sure you will, because a knife blade good enough to hold an edge at all isn't homogeneous.

Good high-carbon steel is harder to make than mild steel. It used to be a lot harder to make; carburization in ambient atmosphere takes an enormous amount of time and fuel, and even then is hit-or-miss.

Because that's so, and also because the brittleness that makes high-carbon steel great for knife edges also makes for a very fragile blade if that's all you use, good knives historically have been made by forge-welding a strip of high-carbon steel to a larger piece of mild steel. The mild steel makes up the bulk of the blade, and the high-carbon strip is shaped and ground to form the edge.

You can sharpen that edge by removing metal, but if you do that enough, you'll remove all the high-carbon steel and end up sharpening the mild stuff. That can't take as good an edge or hold it nearly as long, so you end up with a knife that's dull no matter what you do.

This is also why sharpening steels are a thing, because good knives are usually still made this way. Stropping on a steel cleans up the edge profile without removing metal, yielding a sharper cut without shortening the life of the tool.

Granted, all of this discussion of the mechanics misses the point of the koan, which is all about moderation and humility, and nothing really to do with cleverness beyond the always wise counsel not to let it run away with you. But then, too, moderate discussion of the mechanics may in this case cut toward that end, so I don't really feel this an indulgence to excess.

Re: I'm forking Ladybird and stepping down as SerenityOS BDFL

#220

Post by intelVISA »

hurutparittya wrote: post #34
The_Colonel wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree (apart from the popular hate on Firefox). Ladybird is promising and has a much bigger chance to make an impact than SerenityOS. But it's a bit disappointing to see that it's still pretty much a one-man project. Especially to have a chance to get close to the performance of Chrome and Firefox, it will need a large investment. The amount of engineering resources poured into just making JavaScript fast is mind-n…

I think the Firefox hate is completely justified. At this point the only positive thing about Firefox is that "at least it's not Chrome".

Agree, hopefully King Andreas can carry the torch ignited by Old Mozilla that was lost a few years back.
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